Stanmore

[towerman]

Possessions for construction of third platform at Stanmore start in mid February 2006.

[citysig]

That's possessions for the linking of the track and signalling to the main that begin in February (the platform having already been mostly built.)

And to think that Baker Street SCC was never meant to control the new platform (with the Jub fully transferred to Neasden). Cutting it a bit fine now ;D

[Deleted]

I wonder if the Bear family will start throwing more wobblies when platform 3 is brought online

[Phil]

theonekea said:

I wonder if the Bear family will start throwing more wobblies when platform 3 is brought online

Shades of Goldilocks?

[Tom]

They won't even know anything about it. The third platform isn't going to be commissioned until Stanmore is resignalled as part of JNUP.

(Or at least that's what my friend who is working on JNUP is being told.)

[Deleted]

tom said:

They won't even know anything about it. The third platform isn't going to be commissioned until Stanmore is resignalled as part of JNUP.

(Or at least that's what my friend who is working on JNUP is being told.)

When is JNUP expected to begin? I hope it begins soon, or else Stanmore will end up suffering the Stigma of Birmingham Moor Street...

[Tom]

It's already going on, just no visible signs of it to the public, apart form the Highgate Wood trials.

[towerman]

Surveying work has already been done,construction of new SER's has already started at some locations.

[citysig]

tom said:

They won't even know anything about it. The third platform isn't going to be commissioned until Stanmore is resignalled as part of JNUP.

(Or at least that's what my friend who is working on JNUP is being told.)

He had better talk to our C&I department then, as they were in the other week looking at what will go where. Oh and they have ordered the new diagram tiles.

Never mind the bear family. If the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing....

[Deleted]

citysig said:

He had better talk to our C&I department then, as they were in the other week looking at what will go where. Oh and they have ordered the new diagram tiles.

Never mind the bear family. If the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing....

What sort of layout do the tiles spell?

[Tom]

citysig said:

He had better talk to our C&I department then, as they were in the other week looking at what will go where. Oh and they have ordered the new diagram tiles.

Your C&I department? The last organisation chart I saw had them in the same team as me. ;D
Next time I run into them at a Team Briefing I'll make some more enquiries...

[citysig]

Of course I meant "our" as in the department based at "our" working location as opposed to "your" working location. Rest assured we are aware they are not on "our" team, or I would not have had the recent meetings I had to have to get them to do something ;D

[towerman]

When Stanmore's third platform is up and running,will that spell the end of regular reversing at Willesden?Will it just be every 4th train reversing at Wembley?

[Deleted]

I figured that citysig and Harsig would get a timetable with no regular use of West Hampstead siding, the regular Willesden reversers extended to Wembley and the Wembley reversers extended to Stanmore.

[citysig]

theonekea said:

I figured that citysig and Harsig would get a timetable

;D We are lucky if we get a timetable. The amount of times we are forgotten (except of course when the service is up the wall and they need it sorting out, could explain my regular slating of them )

The third platform may not be used as much to begin with. The platform is due for completion in February, by which time the new Working Timetable will have been in for over a month. The new timetable will obviously not have services booked to the new platform as it won't exist at the time of publishing.

The weekend evening service as it stands already needs the third platform. The remaining layout leaves a lot to be desired, and unless they add a couple of extra signals to it, the third platform won't provide a huge amount of additional capacity in terms of reversing a frequent service (cue Mr1K with a revised layout - if we haven't already had one in the past ;D )

[stanmorek]

So is Stanmore 3rd platform due for completion in February 2006 then? Seems a little optimistic to me but I suppose it depends on what stage of completion.

I pass through the station nearly every day and all I see are the earthworks and piled foundations. Nothing above ground yet. Add the time required for fitting out and M&E installation February does sound quite ambitious.

[Deleted]

citysig said:

theonekea said:

I figured that citysig and Harsig would get a timetable

;D We are lucky if we get a timetable. The amount of times we are forgotten (except of course when the service is up the wall and they need it sorting out, could explain my regular slating of them )

Interesting - I was under the impression that new WTTs were delivered to the signalmen as a matter of course. How else are you expected to run the railway?

citysig said:

The third platform may not be used as much to begin with. The platform is due for completion in February, by which time the new Working Timetable will have been in for over a month. The new timetable will obviously not have services booked to the new platform as it won't exist at the time of publishing.

Whoops.

citysig said:

The weekend evening service as it stands already needs the third platform. The remaining layout leaves a lot to be desired, and unless they add a couple of extra signals to it, the third platform won't provide a huge amount of additional capacity in terms of reversing a frequent service (cue Mr1K with a revised layout - if we haven't already had one in the past ;D )

Wind up and ye shall receive, citysig ;D

216.55.161.203/theonekea/underground/diagrams/stanmore-3-platform.txt

The above is probably as thoroughly wrong as can be, of course...

[citysig]

theonekea said:

Interesting - I was under the impression that new WTTs were delivered to the signalmen as a matter of course. How else are you expected to run the railway?

We were under the same impression. But quite often we are the last to receive Jubilee timetables. And as for the District, there have been several occasions where we have had to beg for a timetable ;D

theonekea said:

Wind up and ye shall receive, citysig ;D

216.55.161.203/theonekea/underground/diagrams/stanmore-3-platform.txt

The above is probably as thoroughly wrong as can be, of course...

You have shown what is more or less the current layout, plus a few bits in the station area to take account of the third platform. However, on this occasion, no amount of loops, pointwork and the like in the station area will speed up the site as a whole.

From what I can see you haven't added the thing that the site needs most. An extra signal or two on the southbound leaving Stanmore. Currently the earliest we can clear the station starters is when the train ahead is virtually at Canons Park.

Another aspect I would hope they change with the resignalling is the emergency release feature. Currently, should a signal be required to be reset (for example due to a train going defective) it is almost 3 minutes before an alternative route can be cleared.

[Deleted]

citysig said:

theonekea said:

Interesting - I was under the impression that new WTTs were delivered to the signalmen as a matter of course. How else are you expected to run the railway?

We were under the same impression. But quite often we are the last to receive Jubilee timetables. And as for the District, there have been several occasions where we have had to beg for a timetable ;D

Oh dear...

citysig said:

You have shown what is more or less the current layout, plus a few bits in the station area to take account of the third platform. However, on this occasion, no amount of loops, pointwork and the like in the station area will speed up the site as a whole.

From what I can see you haven't added the thing that the site needs most. An extra signal or two on the southbound leaving Stanmore. Currently the earliest we can clear the station starters is when the train ahead is virtually at Canons Park.

Oh, that.

I was under the mistaken impression that a few autos would be added to the outbound line past the shunt neck junction as a matter of course - that was why I didn't add any, as I thought you wanted to see what I would make of the new works needed for the third platform.

I saw the deficiency on the diagram in AnorakHeaven's photos and wondered why such a thing would ever be considered palatable.

citysig said:

Another aspect I would hope they change with the resignalling is the emergency release feature. Currently, should a signal be required to be reset (for example due to a train going defective) it is almost 3 minutes before an alternative route can be cleared.

Ugh. Can the fancy new SERs specified by TL release an individual route and/or signal?

[citysig]

The current signalling layout was designed with a 4-8 minute frequency in mind - which was the best Stanmore ever got. With a third platform, they will naturally want to ramp this up to take advantage of the extra room.

We can currently release individual routes. However, because there isn't really that much at Stanmore, any route that has been selected no doubt locks out most other routes - it is almost a 1 in / 1 out site despite the way it would appear. So, for example, despite having a release on say, platform 1's starter, platform 2 cannot be cleared until the release has taken.

[citysig]

stanmorek said:

So is Stanmore 3rd platform due for completion in February 2006 then? Seems a little optimistic to me but I suppose it depends on what stage of completion.

I pass through the station nearly every day and all I see are the earthworks and piled foundations. Nothing above ground yet. Add the time required for fitting out and M&E installation February does sound quite ambitious.

Sorry, meant to add a reply earlier but ran out of time ;D

It is only in late February where the first engineering possessions are planned. I doubt the site will be fully re-signalled etc. by then (it is the jubilee line after all ;D )

That said, there are 3 months until then (OK 2 if you take away the usual Christmas shutdown ;D ) and quite a lot could in theory take place. For example, we don't know how high quality the platform structure will be. I would imagine that the piled foundations will simply have a prefab deck laid across them and, hey presto, one platform ;D

That also said, it sounds to me as if not much has happened since I last went up there a couple of months ago..... ;D

[Deleted]

citysig said:

The current signalling layout was designed with a 4-8 minute frequency in mind - which was the best Stanmore ever got. With a third platform, they will naturally want to ramp this up to take advantage of the extra room.

In that case, I would suggest that three autos would be best between the shunt neck junction and Canons Park e/b - one auto and two home signals, plus the e/b starter. This way you could send an ECS from the sidings to tip in at Canons Park and also send a passenger working from one of the platforms behind it.

Does the other direction need similar treatment?

citysig said:

We can currently release individual routes. However, because there isn't really that much at Stanmore, any route that has been selected no doubt locks out most other routes - it is almost a 1 in / 1 out site despite the way it would appear. So, for example, despite having a release on say, platform 1's starter, platform 2 cannot be cleared until the release has taken.

But with the addition of platform 3, would it become possible to release a route and get another useful route available?

[citysig]

I would stick a signal between the platform and the "junction" of the reception road/shunt neck. But yes, more or less as you suggest.

It would help this example which is how it works currently:

2 trains due out south - 1 ex-sidings direct to Canons Park and 1 ex-platform

Clearing for the one ex-siding as far as the reception road means we can still clear for the one ex-platform (should the siding train not move for whatever reason.)

Clearing for the one ex-platform means that whether he moves or not, you cannot chose to run the train ex-sidings first.

The northbound has a total of 4 signals (including Canons Pk Starter) compared to the southbound's 2 autos. Not quite as restricting. Having said all of this though, when they finally get ATO, moving block or whatever they end up with, they'll be able to squeeze more trains in anyway.

The third platform and releases: the only route which would be available in my example would be to bring a train into the available platform. The southbound starter would be locked until the release was taken (that's if the exisiting scissors crossover is used by trains to/from platform 3).

[Deleted]

citysig said:

I would stick a signal between the platform and the "junction" of the reception road/shunt neck. But yes, more or less as you suggest.

216.55.161.203/theonekea/underground/diagrams/stanmore-3-platform.txt

Just as I suggested - one s/b auto, with a berth that clears the shunt neck junction, and two s/b homes, all equipped with fog repeaters (because they're needed!)

In the other direction I installed an auto with repeater for the shunt neck junction home.

Does this meet with your approval sir?

citysig said:

It would help this example which is how it works currently:

2 trains due out south - 1 ex-sidings direct to Canons Park and 1 ex-platform

Clearing for the one ex-siding as far as the reception road means we can still clear for the one ex-platform (should the siding train not move for whatever reason.)

Clearing for the one ex-platform means that whether he moves or not, you cannot chose to run the train ex-sidings first.

Ah, I see.

citysig said:

The northbound has a total of 4 signals (including Canons Pk Starter) compared to the southbound's 2 autos. Not quite as restricting. Having said all of this though, when they finally get ATO, moving block or whatever they end up with, they'll be able to squeeze more trains in anyway.

Indeed. But that will happen in 2061, and unless you and Harsig want to be stressed out, they'll hopefully realise that signalling provision is a bit thin on the ground.

citysig said:

The third platform and releases: the only route which would be available in my example would be to bring a train into the available platform. The southbound starter would be locked until the release was taken (that's if the exisiting scissors crossover is used by trains to/from platform 3).

Ah, but I think they'll install an Upminster-based layout, which would mean that a release on the outbound routes from platforms 1 or 2 would allow you to send trains into (and maybe out of) platform 3.

[Tom]

citysig said:

Another aspect I would hope they change with the resignalling is the emergency release feature. Currently, should a signal be required to be reset (for example due to a train going defective) it is almost 3 minutes before an alternative route can be cleared.

3 mins??
RRTE, lever goes onto the lock, JNSR picks, 4.5 sec delay to prove it really does need a release, 2 mins timing, maybe 5 secs for the lever to go all the way, and then free to set a conflicting route. That or the timer has lost it's time.

Oh and that long distance on the starters... At least you can get an early backlock release on them.

We spent some time looking at Stanmore on my lineman's course - it helped me out when given a "how do you improve the headway at this ficticious site?" question in a job interview a few months later. ;D

[citysig]

Well not quite 3 minutes. 2 minutes 45 seconds. And that's with a train there or not. Been like that since day one at Baker Street.

Mr1K. Yes it's a little nearer my approval

I was thinking more along the lines of the extra signal being on the main in line with the southbound signal on the reception road. That way each line has 2 signals before the converging point. It also gives that extra bit of flexibility I mentioned, whereby clearing the platform starter does not mean that train has to be the first to Canons Park. You could then get a train from the sidings out in front should the platform train fail to leave.

[Deleted]

citysig said:

Well not quite 3 minutes. 2 minutes 45 seconds. And that's with a train there or not. Been like that since day one at Baker Street.

Mr1K. Yes it's a little nearer my approval

I was thinking more along the lines of the extra signal being on the main in line with the southbound signal on the reception road. That way each line has 2 signals before the converging point. It also gives that extra bit of flexibility I mentioned, whereby clearing the platform starter does not mean that train has to be the first to Canons Park. You could then get a train from the sidings out in front should the platform train fail to leave.

Ah, I hadn't considered that. That would indeed be quite useful...