ATO gets a step nearer

[towerman]

Units 96064-96063 are currently being fitted with train bourne ATO equipment.

[Deleted]

I have read that ATO will be tested out of public service by the end of this year on the first section of line to be ATO'd. Do you know any more on this? (This is excluding small scale tests done already at Bermondsey (PED interfacing) and Willesden Green (axle counters)).

[Deleted]

What is the first part of the line to be tested?

[towerman]

A further update,this train will be used to commission the Depot Commisioning Area(old p.way sdgs)then be loco hauled to the test track at Highgate Depot,it'll be there from July till around Xmas.

[Deleted]

I thought there had already been a 96TS on the Highgate test track?

[towerman]

Yes,96062-96061 but it came back for 7 car project.As far as I am aware 064/063 is the only train with fully functioning run back modification so maybe that's why it was chosen.

[stanmorek]

Small grey boxes like those on the Central line have been appearing at stations on the north end of the Jubilee lately.

[Deleted]

A bunch of weekend closures for certain sections of the Jubilee line have been asked for, from January 2007 onwards; I believe this is to trial the ATO signalling as there will be test trains running in those closed down sections.

One of the closures is Wembley Park - Stanmore; the test trains will trial out the ATO between Stanmore and Kingsbury.

The other closure is Waterloo - Stratford (a large chunk there!) as the test trains are running between Stratford and London Bridge.

These arrangements are of course being finalised and subject to change...

And I believe at the moment, they are still running an empty 96 TS test train during some nights on the Jubilee line; does anyone know what that is running for?

[rikio]

Couple of Quns.

1) Do the trains going to highgate go via the met, picc and then up the northern?

2) Once ATO is complete will the links with the met and Bakerloo be kept? If not, how will bakerloo trains access the rest of the network if need be?

Rikio.

[citysig]

soultrain said:

And I believe at the moment, they are still running an empty 96 TS test train during some nights on the Jubilee line; does anyone know what that is running for?

Yes quite a regular pleasure that (not). Week before last there was one such train booked but it was cancelled.

Apparently, they run them for any reason they require. Prior to 7-car operation they were testing them (and the signalling). Sometimes they are run simply to test the cab CCTV system.

[towerman]

Apparently they're checking to see if the PAC loops don't interfere with the induction loops for the new signalling as there is already some in situ(signalling loops) at Bermondsey.The idea of taking possessions to test out the new signalling next year is to iron out any snags before going "live",they don't want another Central Line.

[citysig]

towerman said:

The idea of taking possessions to test out the new signalling next year is to iron out any snags before going "live",they don't want another Central Line.

Or, when you think about it, they don't want another "JLE."

Isn't it funny how 2 lines always spring to mind when you think of starving the rest of LU of cash...

Sorry I'll visit the rant area.

[Deleted]

rikio said:

2) Once ATO is complete will the links with the met and Bakerloo be kept? If not, how will bakerloo trains access the rest of the network if need be?

It is likely that there will be a back up fixed block signalling system using axle counters for train detection run in conjunction with the moving block signalling system which uses inductive loops for train communication. Thus trains not equipped with ATO, (or where the onboard ATO computer has failed), can still run, but with restricted headway, and possibly restricted speed.

[Deleted]

is the Jubilee getting the same performance upgrade with ATO as the northern will get?

When will this go live roughly (no doubt you will come up with a date in the past)?

How many more services will be timetabled for this change?

Are the drivers looking forward to it, since they will have the same stock but just with a different mode of control?

[towerman]

I believe the Jubilee is just getting a signalling upgrade,the Northern is more complicated as,like the Central,it also involves some track remodelling.As for other lines the plan is for all lines to be ATO by 2020ish,the Picc will probably be the last to be done.Some drivers prefer to drive,some prefer to let the train do the work.

[Deleted]

rob said:

is the Jubilee getting the same performance upgrade with ATO as the northern will get?

When will this go live roughly (no doubt you will come up with a date in the past)?

How many more services will be timetabled for this change?

Both the Jubilee and Northern Line are getting Alcatel Seltrac S40 CBTC signalling, which is already in service on the DLR. It should be fully operational on the Jubilee by 2009, and the Northern by 2011/2012. I don't know if the interlockings will also be upgraded on the Jubilee, although they almost certainly will on the Northern.

The Jubilee will have a planned capacity upgrade from 24tph to 31tph. The Northern is planned to be upgraded from 30tph to 35tph between Morden and Kennington.

[Deleted]

there must be a good reason for this but...

why not make the driver into the guard in the middle of the units and have the door open/close controls there with ATO start buttons. This could be DLR style but this would be much more effective if the SSR gets walk-through carriages. The northern definitely needs more capacity as it is really overloaded in rush hours.

[Deleted]

rob said:

there must be a good reason for this but...

why not make the driver into the guard in the middle of the units and have the door open/close controls there with ATO start buttons. This could be DLR style but this would be much more effective if the SSR gets walk-through carriages. The northern definitely needs more capacity as it is really overloaded in rush hours.

The DLR has short trains and straight platforms making it suitable for door operation mid-train. However, the existing tube lines including the Jubilee and Northern have longer trains, and many curved platforms which require CCTV. In this case having the operator in the cab is probably the better option. I personally think that if there arn't any track intrusion detection or PEDs at all stations, then you need someone in the cab just in case there is an obstruction on the line.

I forgot to add in my last thread that the Northern Line will get a totally new control centre. I would assume that as the Jubilee's Neasden control centre already uses Alcatel NetTrac, that the existing control centre will be used.

[Deleted]

that control centre is going to be at Highgate by the woods there and has met some local opposition. The centre is now being put further into the ground meaning that it will be less vissible from the public in the woods. Will this control signiling and everything like that?

[Deleted]

rob said:

that control centre is going to be at Highgate by the woods there and has met some local opposition. The centre is now being put further into the ground meaning that it will be less vissible from the public in the woods. Will this control signiling and everything like that?

Yes. That's why it's called the control centre

[Deleted]

sarcasm noted.

[towerman]

96064-96063 now on DCA(Depot Commissioning Area)If testing goes well the train will be transfered to the test track at Highgate shortly.

[Deleted]

do tell... I live nearby and can see into the depot, assuming it will be stored there. Highgate depot is just for stabling though isn't it? It doesn't do any maintanance does it?

[towerman]

The tracks that used to go towards Ally Pally have been converted to test the Alcatel transmission based train control system.064-063 was there last year,but then the equipment was just in the cars,now the train has been properly modified,all the additional wiring & equipment is now out of sight.

[Deleted]

the track that goes in the woods underneath a few bridges, but where does it end?

[towerman]

As far as I can remember somewhere in those woods.

[Deleted]

well if you know of times roughly, i could go and take some piccies.

If won't go very far at all as the highgate high level is the limit. I went in there a while back, knowing someone who lives back on to it. It is quite strange seing how empty it is, but it demonstrates how easy it would be to take the line to Finsbury Park.

[towerman]

They've still got to do basic testing at SMD,shouldn't be long though,it's supposed to be back at SMD by Christmas.

[Deleted]

well the Jubbly has 4 new trains which, at the moment have no use, as there isn't extra capacity for them, so they must have a few to spare, but when ATO goes live how many more will the PVR (bus word - sorry) be?

[towerman]

At the moment 24tph requires a peak service of 51 trains so at a guess I'd say a peak service of 56 to 58 trains.BTW the 4 extra trains are being used at the moment,and they will probably cover for ATO mods when it goes into full swing,they're supposed to be doing two trains at a time.