ATO gets a step nearer

[towerman]

004-003 now signed off and in service.

[tubeprune]

Jan 7, 2009 19:14:28 GMT Colin said:

I think care would be needed if this rule were changed - it may be ok to just do a PA and go off to the sidings if a driver is changing ends, but if the train is being stabled it really ought to be checked first!

How would a change in the ruling stand versus carrying passengers over shunt only moves (ie, the points don't require the same legalities of locking as Green signal moves)? How did the land lie before the current tip out ruling came into effect?

The rule hasn't actually changed. We were always supposed to check as passengers were not allowed over shunt signalled moves. It's just the rule is now strictly enforced whereas before, if a punter got taken for a ride you just told 'em to wait till you got back into the station. If we took someone into the depot, we walked them out. I once gave a nice young lady a lift home.

[North End]

Jan 10, 2009 13:03:27 GMT tubeprune said:

Jan 7, 2009 19:14:28 GMT Colin said:

I think care would be needed if this rule were changed - it may be ok to just do a PA and go off to the sidings if a driver is changing ends, but if the train is being stabled it really ought to be checked first!

How would a change in the ruling stand versus carrying passengers over shunt only moves (ie, the points don't require the same legalities of locking as Green signal moves)? How did the land lie before the current tip out ruling came into effect?

The rule hasn't actually changed. We were always supposed to check as passengers were not allowed over shunt signalled moves. It's just the rule is now strictly enforced whereas before, if a punter got taken for a ride you just told 'em to wait till you got back into the station. If we took someone into the depot, we walked them out. I once gave a nice young lady a lift home.

The interesting question is where Kennington fits into this.

Northern Line trains are not required to be detrained at Kennington s/b CX if they are destined to reverse via the loop. However any train reversing via the sidings IS required to detrain.

The rule has been relaxed because of the time taken to detrain every southbound train in the platform, and also because lack of staff at Kennington means detaining would frequently have to be carried out by the Train Operator, exacerbating the delay.

Whenever I've asked for the reason for this ruling, I've been told "it's a green signal move, not a shunt signal, so passengers can be carried".

Have LU forgotten why the detrainment rule was first introduced? I guess things will be okay unless there's some kind of incident involving a loop train, then a lot of trouble could break loose.

[londonstuff]

What actually is the technical difference between a green signal move and a shunt move, other than the fact that shunts can't be done in passenger service?

[Tom]

This has been posted many times previously - I suggest you use the search function.

[Chris M]

From memory, a shunt move requires a lower standard of proof that the route is secure than a passenger move does.

After spending about 20 minutes trying to find a more comprehensive answer using the search, all I can find is this from Colin

colin&board=district&thread=1167&post=14822 said:

We also cannot carry passengers past shunt signals as the points are not locked in position in the same way as those where colour light signals fitted.

and from Mandgc (click to see post):

The Running Signals, used by Passenger Trains, are required to have a more sophisticated locking and detection system than is required for Shunt Signals which are not used for Passenger moves.

Neither of these posts are a full explanation of the sort that I know I received after I made the enquiry a couple of years back.

[Deleted]

As a non-expert, I would suggest that the key point is probably in Tubeprune's #8 post here (before that of mandgc)

The shunt signal indicates to the driver that he must proceed at such a speed that he can stop at any obstruction, e.g buffer stops, another train etc. If he saw a green signal, it would indicate normal speed was OK...

i.e. it authorises a running movement over a running line, which may be, and on the Underground normally is, authorised for passenger (carrying) trains (an LU case where I would expect this not to be the case is Seven Sisters to Northumberland Park).
Presumably the loop at Kennington is an authorised passenger running line, back to the other side of Kennington, but in principle not really any different to that on to Stockwell.

[towerman]

006-005 now signed off and in service,046-045 now stopped for retro fitting.

[towerman]

062-061 now out of TFOS,signed off and in service,042-039 now stopped for retro fitting.

[DrOne]

Was looking at the depth of the queues for the Jub atCanary Wharf home time the other day thinking that ATO really can't come soon enough. Such build-up of passenger volume would just be impossible to cope with at other hot points like Bank or Victoria. Considering what towerman has told us I was wondering whether the businesses are aware of the delays to the upgrade and whether any opinions have been expressed?

[towerman]

117 has come back from Highgate,106-105 has gone to Highgate.

[astock5000]

Do you mean that 117 and another unit has come back from Highgate, as 106 and 105 have gone there, otherwise there would be an odd number of units there?

[towerman]

118 should've come back this week but the train was cancelled so Highgate has 3 units of 96TS at the moment,no doubt it will be back at SMD in the next week or two.

[towerman]

All retro fitting now finished,a couple of staff will stay on for "snagging" work,the rest will move to Edgware in February to start on 95TS.

[astock5000]

Jan 31, 2009 0:00:16 GMT towerman said:

118 should've come back this week but the train was cancelled so Highgate has 3 units of 96TS at the moment,no doubt it will be back at SMD in the next week or two.

So how are 96TS units moved to/from Highgate then?

[Chris M]

via the Kings Cross/Euston Loop to the Picc, round to Rayners, onto the Met then on the Jubilee at Neasdon I guess

[astock5000]

I meant how do you transfer a single unit of 96TS, as they are single ended.

[Deleted]

Using a battery loco.

[towerman]

Between 2 battery locos with Schoma locos used as barrier vehicles.

[Colin]

I had somehow missed the thread drift on shunt moves on the last page..........I have now posted a new thread in the correct area:

www.districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Rail&thread=10088&page=1

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2008 20:03:33 GMT towerman said:

The upgrade plans only envisage 30tph between North Greenwich & Willesden Green.

Interesting after a bit of reading I've found out that the original JLE expectation of 36tph was just the ultimate design capacity (with just 5secs operating margin at full speed run ins). The original plan was for 27tph upon opening, and 30tph in 2005.

[towerman]

118 unit is returning from Highgate tonight.

[towerman]

Jubilee will be shut all over Easter for TBTC works,the only exception will be Stratford-Waterloo Easter Saturday from 15:00.BTW,there will be trial ops between Green Pk & Stratford on 16th April.

[Ben]

Having read 'Tube Trains Under London', by J Graem Bruce, it states that plans "have been made for this [the introduction of rolling stock fitted with ATO and the resignalling of Baker Street - Stanmore with ATO] to be reached in 1982".

So would 30 years late be a respectible estimate for the delivery of the project?

[Colin]

Sounds about right ;D ;D ;D ;D

[d7666]

Feb 23, 2009 0:52:41 GMT Ben said:

ATO and the resignalling of Baker Street - Stanmore with ATO] to be reached in 1982".

Not sure but I think I have seen a specfication document on that subject in the LU Library.

--
Nick

[Deleted]

Someone on The Transport Forum has heard a rumour that Tube Lines have laid 30 miles of the wrong cable (with potentially devastating consequences):
billz1064.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=Misc&action=display&thread=13152&page=1

[Deleted]

Feb 24, 2009 22:48:58 GMT @edvid said:

Someone on The Transport Forum has heard a rumour that Tube Lines have laid 30 miles of the wrong cable (with potentially devastating consequences):
billz1064.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=Misc&action=display&thread=13152&page=1

I really dread to think how long it will take to relay new stuff again, will we be able to ever use the full jubilee at weekends again anytime soon?

[21146]

Feb 27, 2009 16:45:15 GMT @delboy200 said:

Feb 24, 2009 22:48:58 GMT @edvid said:

Someone on The Transport Forum has heard a rumour that Tube Lines have laid 30 miles of the wrong cable (with potentially devastating consequences):
billz1064.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=Misc&action=display&thread=13152&page=1

I really dread to think how long it will take to relay new stuff again, will we be able to ever use the full jubilee at weekends again anytime soon?

I was told that on a recent 'PEDs' course too.

[Ben]

How will they spin that one when the clousures come round again?