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Post by Christopher J on Sept 6, 2005 19:46:52 GMT
I once heard a rumour that Class 465/466 Networkers were passed to run on the East London Line. Can anybody confirm this is true?  |
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Post by q8 on Sept 6, 2005 20:42:56 GMT
Funny you should mention this Chris because somebody I know absolutely insists that the ELL is wired for both 4 rail AND 3rd rail return. I queried this a while back and it was denied by somebody on this forum.
However my mate was one of the guys who did the ELL refurbishing and rewiring etc in the three years it was closed and says that it is DEFINITE that both LT and NR southern trains can use the route as impedance bonds were installed.
It is however only supplied at 630v
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 6, 2005 22:23:42 GMT
One of my colleagues was the prinicple signal design engineer for the ELL resignalling - there are no impedance bonds fitted so the route isn't suitable for third rail traction.
What has been installed are Jointless Track Circuit (JTC) terminating bonds, which many people refer to as Impedance Bonds but aren't.
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Post by q8 on Sept 7, 2005 5:52:24 GMT
I'm telling you this guy absolutey insists that the track circuits on the ELL are immnunised against third rail return. He says that for some reason this is being kept dark.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2005 7:03:34 GMT
Probably because the only parts of the ELL immunised for third/fourth rail traction are newer bits that were refurbed during the closure in the 90s, and that there are still parts of the line that cannot cope?
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Post by igelkotten on Sept 7, 2005 9:37:49 GMT
I'm telling you this guy absolutey insists that the track circuits on the ELL are immnunised against third rail return. He says that for some reason this is being kept dark. It is expensive to install proper impedance bonds, they have to be maintained continously in order to work, and they can cause problems with other existing signalling equipment if not installed as an integrated system. I am having a very, very hard time believing that LU/TfL would project, design, install and verify signalling equipment worth millions, for no other purpose than "keeping it in the dark" Maybe it is designed for use as an UFO landing pad? |
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Post by deckchair on Sept 7, 2005 11:04:52 GMT
You know too much.
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Post by q8 on Sept 7, 2005 12:11:36 GMT
Well the geezer screamed at me that he was right. So he may be an alien. However as an ex-underground man and given the present 'Ebenezer' attitude of LUL management I tend to go more with Igelkotten's (and Tom's) opinions on this matter.
However there IS an item on the web that states that ELL is equippied for both systems but I can't t remember where I saw it.
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Post by rikio on Sept 7, 2005 16:37:09 GMT
did you see it here perhaps? www.davros.org/rail/culg/eastlondon.htmlsome quotes "Since the 1998 reopening, the electrical systems can be operated in "third rail" or "fourth rail" mode, though at present only the latter is used" "Following the reconstruction of 1995-8, the line was cleared for main line "Networker" trains; when the southern extensions are built, these may well be used for through services." |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2005 17:42:06 GMT
well i know there are certainly rumours that the 458s will run the Extended ELL. they aren't wired for 4th Rail operation so the ELL will have to be re-done
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Post by Admin Team on Sept 7, 2005 18:33:09 GMT
did you see it here perhaps? www.davros.org/rail/culg/eastlondon.htmlsome quotes "Since the 1998 reopening, the electrical systems can be operated in "third rail" or "fourth rail" mode, though at present only the latter is used" "Following the reconstruction of 1995-8, the line was cleared for main line "Networker" trains; when the southern extensions are built, these may well be used for through services." Can I urge just a little caution here! Although Clive Feather is undoubtedly very knowledgeable he's not infallible and has known to be wrong, though I am not suggesting he is in this instance, I don't know! A few years back I had a major run in with him (on u.t.l. IIRC) where he was trying to tell me something about the District that was just plain incorrect. It took a fairly vitriolic exchange of posts before I finally relented and rather grudgingly accepted that I was right and he was wrong! As with any area of research, always check a variety of sources  |
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Post by q8 on Sept 7, 2005 18:43:20 GMT
The guy now says he meant the the ELL has been PREPPED for third rail. Thanks Rikio for the post but that is not where I saw the article.
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Post by Christopher J on Sept 7, 2005 18:56:35 GMT
did you see it here perhaps? Hello Rikio, That Page rings a bell and yes I think I did read the information on Clives site, thanks! well i know there are certainly rumours that the 458s will run the Extended ELL. That may be a possibility, but as far as I’m aware weren’t the 458s supposed to be going up to Scotland to work along their AC cousins (the 334s Junipers) with Strathclyde Passenger Transport? |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 7, 2005 21:22:17 GMT
Having spoken with another colleague today who also worked on the ELL resignalling, apparently some preparatory work was carried out for the line to eventually be worked by main line stock. However, the signalling as currently installed does not support it.
I would also echo Dave's advice on the writings of Clive Feather, I read his write-up on a visit to White City/Wood Lane and found a number of errors in it.
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Post by olympic747 on Nov 9, 2005 12:01:44 GMT
TfL Rail have issued invitations to tender for the design of ELLX rolling stock; so it may be that Bombardier will produce a third rail version of SSL for ELLX. Or they might just supply suburban Electrostars
It will be interesting to see the trains in the hybrid maroon and blue (rather than LU red and blue) TfL Rail livery.
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Post by edb on Nov 10, 2005 19:19:13 GMT
Are there any artists impressions of this livery? Sounds interesting, rather like something from 50 years ago (though that is no bad thing)
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Post by Chris M on Nov 10, 2005 20:15:50 GMT
The only thing I managed to find on the web is that the brown will be the same colour as that used on the Bakerloo Line.
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Post by olympic747 on Nov 11, 2005 8:34:05 GMT
If you look at TfL Rail website and the ELLX, you see images of the proposed stations, and the general TfL Rail logo above: it is not quite brown a la Bakerloo, but maroon (Midland Railway?) with blue. So i assume that ELLX trains will be almost identical to livery on LU (except LU is central line red). Many commuters will not see the difference. TfL Coach stops also look very much like the old LT colours - except this time a light shade of red. The idea is that Rail (maroon) and Orange (coach stop) is meant to signify a parallel service to the LT red and blue of Tube and Bus. Nice idea in theory - but for suruban rail and coach, i'd prefer a good old LT Green Line style logo. I'd have Green roundel, yellow bar, black station names
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Post by edb on Nov 11, 2005 18:56:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2005 19:43:24 GMT
LUL wouldn't use 376s i wouldn't think... they seems wo complex to me for you fairly (and this is meant in a nice way) simplistic tube drivers!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2005 20:20:01 GMT
They were supposed to use 4JOPS (aka 458s), but now that SWT appears to actually like them, it may be that the 365s will be used instead.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 13, 2005 3:02:50 GMT
LUL wouldn't use 376s i wouldn't think... they seems wo complex to me for you fairly (and this is meant in a nice way) simplistic tube drivers!!! If you think our stocks are simple, you have lot to learn!! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2005 8:03:10 GMT
but if you were to campare all the safety systems and computers etc that big mainline trains have with i dunno... a C stock, i would bet my head it would be easier to understand and drive the C stock. thats what i mean by simple.
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Post by trainopd78 on Nov 13, 2005 9:26:02 GMT
The computers actually make things easier, as they tell you what to do when the train goes wrong. With conventional stock, you need to know it backwards. If you compare a 95/96 ts to a networker, apart from the addition of aws and tpws and of course our own safety systems, the trains are comparable. Its like comparing a 59ts to a mk1. The train works in pretty much the same way essentially. Of course there are differences, but the mechanics are similar.
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Post by setttt on Nov 13, 2005 9:30:16 GMT
They were supposed to use 4JOPS (aka 458s), but now that SWT appears to actually like them, it may be that the 365s will be used instead. Since when? The last I heard, SWT are sending them over to GatEx! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2005 17:25:10 GMT
TfL Rail have issued invitations to tender for the design of ELLX rolling stock; so it may be that Bombardier will produce a third rail version of SSL for ELLX. Or they might just supply suburban Electrostars What about the fleet of 30 junipers that are going to be made redundant at the end of the year from SWT?? Perfect? (Yes Seth, rumours have gone round they were going to GatEX, but rumours have also gone round that they are goin to SPT, so who knows!) If you think our stocks are simple, you have lot to learn!! Too true... but if you were to campare all the safety systems and computers etc that big mainline trains have with i dunno... a C stock, i would bet my head it would be easier to understand and drive the C stock. thats what i mean by simple. Compare a VEP with a C stock, now compare a VEP with a Electrostar, major differences with the last option rather than the first me thinks As long as the correct training is given, a train isnt difficult to understand. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2005 18:51:59 GMT
8001 & 8002 are now at Stewarts Lane with Gatwick Express, and another UID 458 is currently in Scotland having a panto fitted for testing with their AC counterparts. It is definate that the 458 with Panto fitted will be classed as 358.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2005 18:53:41 GMT
MA the SWT JOPs are going to ScotRail in June Next Year, being removed from the diagrams sometime im march
while they are bogging off to sctoland the intention IS to return them to london for the ELLX, or zat is what i've heard from porterbrook who own the units!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2005 18:54:18 GMT
the UID 458 is 011... the only bloody one i havn't been on!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2005 18:58:27 GMT
Two 458s are in Glasgow apparently.
"Entrain reports that Strathclyde PTE officially wish to acquire the 458's (presumably the 28 left at SWT) and they will be reclassified as Class 358 once fitted with pantographs. They are intended to replace the 314's and provide additional capacity.
Apparently 8004 and 8011 are due to Glasgow shortly."
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