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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2006 21:23:02 GMT
It does happen to drivers occassionally now. I heard one driver this month had to be relieved after he was sick on the platform at Ealing Broadway, apparently due to the heat.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2006 21:34:03 GMT
It seems to me that the biggest issue here is simply an overdose of cynicism - no one believes that the aircon fitted to S stock cabs will do what it is supposed to do. The detractors feel that it will either not work, be misconfigured, or break down too often and thus force the failure of the train. They feel that providing a simple mechanical option to admit outside air to the cab is the better option, especially since they feel that it costs less money. Personally, I feel that a louvred sliding vent should be provided somewhere in the cab (preferably in or near the door), so that everyone is satisfied - the SSL design engineers get their aircon installations, the 400+ District drivers get a comfy cab, and the few who dislike air con get their natural ventilation. The air con will work, the air con will work, the air con will work. Now, if I just click my heels together.................... ;D Seriously for a moment, these units should be reliable but if they do fail there is a back up solution to continue to feed the cab conditioned air. It's not the engineers who want the air con here though, as i have said if metronet could get away with not providing it they would be over the moon. The fact is that drivers do want it (in the main) and it would be unacceptable not to provide it on a 21st century train. Also, with or without secondary ventilation the cab will be a comfortable environment. This and the 09ts are the first LU trains to be designed from the drawing board utilising human factors engineers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2006 21:34:15 GMT
The problem I see is that any t/op that has to open the cab doors regularly would let the cooled cab air out thus defeating the effect unless there was an 'air curtain'. I don't think that will be much of a problem. The driver doesn't usually have cause to open the cab door very often, except for ventilation - which won't be needed if the aircon works properly. However, short trips such as Olympia - High St Ken might not give the air con time to work properly, if it only runs in the active cab, as with D stock refurbs. Anyone here had experience of doing Olympias in a refurb in hot weather? I rarely seem to get Olympias.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2006 21:36:27 GMT
Seriously for a moment, these units should be reliable but if they do fail there is a back up solution to continue to feed the cab conditioned air. Is the back-up solution to feed the cool air from the saloon into the cab?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2006 21:38:42 GMT
EDIT: Have any of the cab designers talked to health experts, i.e. doctors, about this? I have just remembered that when the A/C in an automobile is set to recirculate the existing interior air, to cool it down faster, the setting must not be left for too long, or the saloon air will become heavily dehumidifed, as well as stale. The air in this cab will never be stale. As I have said elsewhere the air con takes in 70% of it's air intake from the outside and recycles the other 30% from the cab. There is also the psychological factor - being in an enclosed, windowed box with slightly stale cold air blowing towards you for several hours might be extremely uncomfortable to some. I would not be surprised if some of the SSL drivers began regularly flushing the air at station stops in order to help relieve the staleness. Firstly, and again, the air will not be stale. Secondly no driver has to drive for several hours at a time. Thirdly, I'm not sure if I have said this but the air will not be stale. Also, as a technical aside, will the filters be of the traditional matrix type, or will they be ionic? The use of electricial ionic filters that can be removed, hosed off and reinstalled, as opposed to a matrix filter that must be specially built and changed every few months, could be a significant trade-off. I honestly do not know.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2006 21:41:23 GMT
Are any figures available for the heat production (kW) of either cab aircon units or passenger aircon units? I was looking at them today oddly enough, but did not bring the document home. I'll check and let you know, if I forget please PM me. I am getting quite forgetful, I think it's the heat as my office doesn't have air conditioning!! ;D
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2006 21:44:17 GMT
Thats going to be the only way round this I fear. It's already happened... When Stockholm Transport introduced the C20 stock (from which the S stock will be derived) in the late 1990s, a senior project manager stuck his reputation on the line and said that the cabs wouldn't need air conditioning. One Trafikbefäl (similar to a London DMT) who rode with a driver once was explaining this. As soon as the train arrived at the next station, the driver leapt out of his seat, left his unventilated cab and vomited in the nearest bin. After a few more drivers repeated this action small-ish office air conditioning units were installed in the driving cabs, and the later batch of C20s all came with cab air conditioning. Only one (No. 2000) ever recieved saloon air con however, the others all have forced air ventilation, which IMHO is better (2000 has been rather cold to ride in these last few days). So, are you saying that the trains didn't have air con fitted resulting in drivers becoming ill and in response air con was fitted and solved the problem?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2006 21:46:55 GMT
The problem I see is that any t/op that has to open the cab doors regularly would let the cooled cab air out thus defeating the effect unless there was an 'air curtain'. I don't think that will be much of a problem. The driver doesn't usually have cause to open the cab door very often, except for ventilation - which won't be needed if the aircon works properly. However, short trips such as Olympia - High St Ken might not give the air con time to work properly, if it only runs in the active cab, as with D stock refurbs. Anyone here had experience of doing Olympias in a refurb in hot weather? I rarely seem to get Olympias. The current plan is for the rear cab to maintain the same temperature as the leading cab. This should result in an immediately comfortable environment when changing ends.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 31, 2006 21:57:19 GMT
It's already happened... When Stockholm Transport introduced the C20 stock (from which the S stock will be derived) in the late 1990s, a senior project manager stuck his reputation on the line and said that the cabs wouldn't need air conditioning. One Trafikbefäl (similar to a London DMT) who rode with a driver once was explaining this. As soon as the train arrived at the next station, the driver leapt out of his seat, left his unventilated cab and vomited in the nearest bin. After a few more drivers repeated this action small-ish office air conditioning units were installed in the driving cabs, and the later batch of C20s all came with cab air conditioning. Only one (No. 2000) ever recieved saloon air con however, the others all have forced air ventilation, which IMHO is better (2000 has been rather cold to ride in these last few days). So, are you saying that the trains didn't have air con fitted resulting in drivers becoming ill and in response air con was fitted and solved the problem? Well, no. What I'm getting at is that should the air con fail a C20 cab becomes a greenhouse and has made drivers ill in the past. A major difference between London and Stockholm is that a Stockholm Tunneltågförare has to open the cab side door when carrying out platform duties, and hence a fresh air intake is maintained, whereas the London situation is based around the T/Op doing everything from the seat. Therefore the only airflow in an S stock cab will be provided by a functioning air con unit, and should that fail you have problems. (I'm trying to remain objective here, honest. Even if I would prefer an opening window.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2006 22:31:38 GMT
As long as the cab heat/vent system is efficient (which it will be) I don't see a problem. Being able to run in all conditions without an opening of any kind is safer, cleaner, less noisy, and more pleasant.. Well the D stock must not be efficient then as i prefer the doors open and the air con off ! ;D ;D I rather doubt those banging on about putting air con in cabs have also been banging on about making doors and windows non opening ! Suggest the voice of staff is listened to here ! Ahh come on Aspect you know that's not true. I will promise to have a good debate about this with my boss though, we do have to listen. Haha, you misunderstand me PRJB ! I meant i'm sure whilst the unions may be pressing for Air Con they are not pressing for non opening windows and cab doors. I'm sure your listening and debating the requests. However, since as a normal driver i am not aware of having been asked my views either by the union or otherwise ...i wonder if some sort of proper questionairre should not be sent to all drivers ! I dislike the aircon units on refurb D stock, for a start even on the warmest setting they are way too cold. Do we drive on the same line? ;D ;D ;D I must admit, of the three drivers i've heard moan about it (out of 400 on the line), they've all been Upminster drivers..... You west end drivers rarely get beyond Tower Hill to the fresh air ;D ;D ;D I have tried the air con on all the settings, but as Hindenberg, i think it was put it, i want a breeze across me, but i want the breeze at the ambient temperature. No breeze is too warm, but the air con breeze is too cold. As someone else said, it's control of the thermostat that the imprtant thing. My car has climate control. I decide the temperature to the nearest 0.5 of a degree centigrade and the system warms, cools or sucks in ambient air to maintain the temperature. Now that is good. Not this high, low, med ...load of nonsence ! Especially for 21st century stock / refurbs (even then i prefer the car windows open ) However, unlike, it seems some of you secretly hidden away at the front, i often open up the cab door at all the main stations and hang out of the cab watching my lovely public with a smile and a nod So if the risk is not the main concern, and now you have drivers telling you they DO want an opening window, why can't we have one? Well we only have a handfull of District drivers on here and 8/10 owners said their cats prefered whiskas.....no hang on......i got confused.....seriously, i mean you have a clear body from this very small sample of drivers who want opening doors and or windows, multiply this by the total drivers and a rather large figure emerges !!! Please, please, please revisit this subject ;D ;D ;D Incidentally appologies for debating this in this way here, but it is a superb way to convey our thoughts, thanks no end to the willingness of PRJB to represent the official thoughts. So specific thanks to PRJB for his participation ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jul 31, 2006 22:32:48 GMT
The driver doesn't usually have cause to open the cab door very often, except for ventilation - which won't be needed if the aircon works properly.
The moment 'you'/one says that, then you have a situation where it happens all the time..Sod's Law. I can only envisage at present service disruptions but at present how many times do t/ops have to open their doors when the service goes up the spout? My personal opinion is that a window that opened would be a nice thing to have. The lawyer in me suggests that engineering opening windows that enabled t/ops and anyone else in the cab. legally or not, is inviting legal action when an injury or worse happens. Never mind it was X's fault, X could not have been hurt or killed if there had been no opening window in the first place! May I revisit again with your indulgence? Risk of accidents aside, I can definitely see the logic in an opening window or door, for all the reasons stated plus one: what happens if the A/C unit goes u/s, leaks, or similar? It will be extremely handy to be able to unlock a door or window in such emergency and perhaps to avoid a train being taken out of service.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2006 23:44:09 GMT
As long as the cab heat/vent system is efficient (which it will be) I don't see a problem. Being able to run in all conditions without an opening of any kind is safer, cleaner, less noisy, and more pleasant.. Well the D stock must not be efficient then as i prefer the doors open and the air con off ! ;D ;D Haha, you misunderstand me PRJB ! I meant i'm sure whilst the unions may be pressing for Air Con they are not pressing for non opening windows and cab doors. I'm sure your listening and debating the requests. However, since as a normal driver i am not aware of having been asked my views either by the union or otherwise ...i wonder if some sort of proper questionairre should not be sent to all drivers ! You west end drivers rarely get beyond Tower Hill to the fresh air ;D ;D ;D I have tried the air con on all the settings, but as Hindenberg, i think it was put it, i want a breeze across me, but i want the breeze at the ambient temperature. No breeze is too warm, but the air con breeze is too cold. As someone else said, it's control of the thermostat that the imprtant thing. My car has climate control. I decide the temperature to the nearest 0.5 of a degree centigrade and the system warms, cools or sucks in ambient air to maintain the temperature. Now that is good. Not this high, low, med ...load of nonsence ! Especially for 21st century stock / refurbs (even then i prefer the car windows open ) However, unlike, it seems some of you secretly hidden away at the front, i often open up the cab door at all the main stations and hang out of the cab watching my lovely public with a smile and a nod So if the risk is not the main concern, and now you have drivers telling you they DO want an opening window, why can't we have one? Well we only have a handfull of District drivers on here and 8/10 owners said their cats prefered whiskas.....no hang on......i got confused.....seriously, i mean you have a clear body from this very small sample of drivers who want opening doors and or windows, multiply this by the total drivers and a rather large figure emerges !!! Please, please, please revisit this subject ;D ;D ;D Incidentally appologies for debating this in this way here, but it is a superb way to convey our thoughts, thanks no end to the willingness of PRJB to represent the official thoughts. So specific thanks to PRJB for his participation ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Far be it from me to stick up for your Rep's, but they are indeed pushing us on this issue as a result of comments received from their respective branch meetings. You have two dedicated Rep's working with us on the upgrades and they are hard working and very switched on/in touch with what their members think. I used to be a driver with one of them and I can say hand on my heart he does his job really well, if I'm ever on a 'DB' I will be getting him to represent me! I personally did a survey on cab heat/vent last year and the resounding call from drivers was for air con. In fact someone you know really well helped me out at a local level in getting the surveys back (PM me!). That said, it does seem that you guys are making the same noises (meant in the nicest sense) that the rep's are telling us they are getting. I am broaching this subject with my boss because regardless of my thoughts this is going to be your office and I for one want to get it right for you. Even if I don't agree with what you are saying! ;D
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2006 23:47:32 GMT
May I revisit again with your indulgence? Risk of accidents aside, I can definitely see the logic in an opening window or door, for all the reasons stated plus one: what happens if the A/C unit goes u/s, leaks, or similar? It will be extremely handy to be able to unlock a door or window in such emergency and perhaps to avoid a train being taken out of service. If the cab air con goes defective then there is a level of redundancy.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2006 23:48:29 GMT
Seriously for a moment, these units should be reliable but if they do fail there is a back up solution to continue to feed the cab conditioned air. Is the back-up solution to feed the cool air from the saloon into the cab? I'm gonna PM you on this one. Hands in pocket as he sidles away whilst whistling!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 1, 2006 1:52:46 GMT
The problem I see is that any t/op that has to open the cab doors regularly would let the cooled cab air out thus defeating the effect unless there was an 'air curtain'. Because of a C stock's motor's requiring the attention of the London Fire Brigade last night, my train was 'stranded' at a very hot Temple station for 35 minutes. I had the cab door (of my refurb D stock ;D)open for most of that time conversing with the station staff - and during all that time the cab stayed very cool using only the lowest setting. Ok, I now know that was the coldest setting (thanks SB ) - but it goes to show that the cab can remain 'cooled' with door open and no 'air curtain'. However, short trips such as Olympia - High St Ken might not give the air con time to work properly, if it only runs in the active cab, as with D stock refurbs. Anyone here had experience of doing Olympias in a refurb in hot weather? I rarely seem to get Olympias. I have, and i've always found it satisfactory - even on those short trips.
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Post by Colin on Aug 1, 2006 1:56:01 GMT
Changing the thread's direction, if I may:
prjb - will the 'S' have seat lock alarms fitted (I believe the 95's have it)? Also, will the cabs get proper intruder alarms?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2006 3:04:38 GMT
The air con will work, the air con will work, the air con will work. Now, if I just click my heels together.................... ;D Seriously for a moment, these units should be reliable but if they do fail there is a back up solution to continue to feed the cab conditioned air. It's not the engineers who want the air con here though, as i have said if metronet could get away with not providing it they would be over the moon. The fact is that drivers do want it (in the main) and it would be unacceptable not to provide it on a 21st century train. Also, with or without secondary ventilation the cab will be a comfortable environment. This and the 09ts are the first LU trains to be designed from the drawing board utilising human factors engineers. Good! It seems that Metronet truly does have its head screwed on correctly on this subject. EDIT: Have any of the cab designers talked to health experts, i.e. doctors, about this? I have just remembered that when the A/C in an automobile is set to recirculate the existing interior air, to cool it down faster, the setting must not be left for too long, or the saloon air will become heavily dehumidifed, as well as stale. The air in this cab will never be stale. As I have said elsewhere the air con takes in 70% of it's air intake from the outside and recycles the other 30% from the cab. Even better! ;D Firstly, and again, the air will not be stale. Secondly no driver has to drive for several hours at a time. Thirdly, I'm not sure if I have said this but the air will not be stale. Yes, they do. Unless you and I have different metrics for what a T/Op spends his time doing during a duty half - you are undoubtedly considering linear driving time, whereas I am considering cumulative driving time... Also, as a technical aside, will the filters be of the traditional matrix type, or will they be ionic? The use of electricial ionic filters that can be removed, hosed off and reinstalled, as opposed to a matrix filter that must be specially built and changed every few months, could be a significant trade-off. I honestly do not know. This is something I really am curious about, as I seriously think that Metronet will waste a lot of money on filters for the A/C, given how dirty the tunnels are.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2006 6:55:04 GMT
However, since as a normal driver i am not aware of having been asked my views either by the union or otherwise ...i wonder if some sort of proper questionairre should not be sent to all drivers ! We did have a questionnaire come round at Earls Court a while back, asking about air con (but not about opening doors and windows!) I do think questionnaires to all drivers are the way to go, rather than relying solely on feedback from union reps.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2006 8:46:31 GMT
They (Metronet) need to give the tunnels a good scrub. After that, on go the filters, air-curtains (I mention them in the Questions and Comments thread Air Con) and the A/C, and (I hope!) she'll be apples.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2006 10:32:39 GMT
prjb - will the 'S' have seat lock alarms fitted (I believe the 95's have it)? Also, will the cabs get proper intruder alarms? I would be surprised if they didnt have it fitted. All LUL stock barr the D stock have them fitted, and I was surprised that they didnt get i on refurb.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 1, 2006 20:53:49 GMT
Changing the thread's direction, if I may: prjb - will the 'S' have seat lock alarms fitted (I believe the 95's have it)? Also, will the cabs get proper intruder alarms? Can I PM you on this too? I know it appears I have gone all 'secret squirrel' but there are some things I just can't discuss and others that I would prefer not to talk about on a public forum. Security issues are an area that I would rather have a chat about via PM if thats ok. Thanks for being understanding guys (and girls too, I think we had a post from Annie somewhere in this monster of a thread!).
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 1, 2006 20:59:41 GMT
However, since as a normal driver i am not aware of having been asked my views either by the union or otherwise ...i wonder if some sort of proper questionairre should not be sent to all drivers ! We did have a questionnaire come round at Earls Court a while back, asking about air con (but not about opening doors and windows!) I do think questionnaires to all drivers are the way to go, rather than relying solely on feedback from union reps. I agree 100%, it's a good way of getting immediate feedback from drivers. The questionnaire you saw was the one that I did and it proved very useful. My main role is to represent the operational railway, and I try my best, but at the end of the day I haven't been a train operator since 1997 which is why I sent out the questionnaire. I said it back in the mists of this thread, so at the risk of repeating myself - this time we really are listening!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 2, 2006 3:09:46 GMT
Changing the thread's direction, if I may: prjb - will the 'S' have seat lock alarms fitted (I believe the 95's have it)? Also, will the cabs get proper intruder alarms? Can I PM you on this too? I know it appears I have gone all 'secret squirrel' but there are some things I just can't discuss and others that I would prefer not to talk about on a public forum. Security issues are an area that I would rather have a chat about via PM if thats ok. Feel free to PM me
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2006 1:11:41 GMT
Change of direction:
What plans are being made to teach depot staff how to care for these trains? The "use a larger hammer" maintenance style that may have worked for 1938 tube stock will obviously be unsuitable for S stock, so how does Metronet plan on teaching depot staff, spread out across four depots, each with vastly different skills and experiences, to work on a homogenous fleet of 21st century trains?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2006 2:41:17 GMT
Set up a Metronet maintenance school
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2006 8:20:52 GMT
I've just had another thought about the whole can ventilation issue (yes, I know, yawns all round!)
Will the S stock have a cab fan heater, and if so will it be able to blow unheated air, as on the D stocks? That would give some air movement without aircon for those that want it.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 3, 2006 19:07:18 GMT
Change of direction: What plans are being made to teach depot staff how to care for these trains? The "use a larger hammer" maintenance style that may have worked for 1938 tube stock will obviously be unsuitable for S stock, so how does Metronet plan on teaching depot staff, spread out across four depots, each with vastly different skills and experiences, to work on a homogenous fleet of 21st century trains? I have got to be honest in saying that as the depot staff are employed by Metronet I am not sure what their internal plans are. I can say that the depot staff attend all the relevant design meetings and have had a big steer in the maintenance side of the decision making progress. In fact, the key player from the depot is a guy (ex-LU) I have known for quite a few years and I have an awful lot of respect for his knowledge, skills, and experience. If their plans are anything like what we are producing then they are not going to have too many problems. All the manuals are being looked at already as well as the TNA and resourcing requirements. On top of that we also need to re-write an awful lot of procedures and this is also under way.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 3, 2006 19:12:56 GMT
I've just had another thought about the whole can ventilation issue (yes, I know, yawns all round!) Will the S stock have a cab fan heater, and if so will it be able to blow unheated air, as on the D stocks? That would give some air movement without aircon for those that want it. Hey, look - this is a big issue and extremely important to the people who are going to be spending their working time in these cabs. As far as I am concerned I will discuss this for as long as you want to, there is nothing to stop members from posting other issues on this thread. I will answer as many posts as I can, this is what I joined for! The TU Reps asked this question a little while ago and the LU engineers are seeking clarification. I would be shocked if you couldn't blow filtered air through the vent system, and have been working on the assumption that you can. It wasn't until the TU asked that the doubt on this surfaced. I have a meeting in the morning with the engineers and the TU so I should have an answer for you on this tomorrow night.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 3, 2006 19:41:30 GMT
All the manuals are being looked at already as well as the TNA and resourcing requirements. What is TNA?
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Post by c5 on Aug 3, 2006 20:21:59 GMT
All the manuals are being looked at already as well as the TNA and resourcing requirements. What is TNA? I believe it may be Training Needs Analysis
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