8 car districts

[Ben]

Before uncoupling was discontinued on the District in 1971, the CO/CP, R and Q stocks used to run in peaks as 8 car formations. Does anyone know is this was reconsidered for the introduction of S stock for the district, and why it wouldnt be possible?

Many thanks!

[Deleted]

Didn't the 8-car Districts run to Whitechapel as the platforms on the LTSR stretch were very long?

The central area platforms are too short, which would be one of the reasons. They tried extending the 8-car Mets to Barking at the beginning of the war, but they were eventually stopped. These allowed the 8-cars to actually take the whole train to somewhere within the circle, rather than uncoupling outside of it.

[Ben]

The Barking Met thing was scrapped because it saved money and carriage construction because the trains would have to be 8 cars.

From 'The R stock Story' - Piers Connor, p. 7

"...only late in 1949 were they withdrawn to allow a saving in the number of cars needed. This saving was achieved because Barking to Uxbridge line trains had to be of 8 cars but by retaining the Barking to Hammersmith trains instead, the existing 6-car formation could continue."

8 car trains did opperate through the southern portion of the circle, and indeed on all the extremities of the line; there being coupling sidings at Ealing Broadway, Parsons Green, and Upminster.

[metman]

The reason the Uxbridge-Barking service was stopped was because it didn't work! Apart from the blitz, the service was hampered initially by lack of stock. The P stock only entered service the date the Barking extension was started. The Met had to use M and N stock District trains (presumably with G, K and M stock motors) and 3 new Q38 stock 8 car trains! Eventually the service was found to be unrealiable, because, frankly the route was too long! There were and are too many flat junctions in the City area!

Ben, to try and answer your question, I don't think that 8 car District trains were considered (I'm sure Prjb would correct me) because the idea of the new trains was to make them generic. In reality, when 8 car R, Q and occasionally CO/CP stocks ran as 8 cars, they would end up with a lot of the last car in the tunnel still (and probably some of the leading car too). With guards on the trains, as long as the guard could see the platform and give the driver the starting signal it was ok (interestingly CO cars were not allowed to work at the far end of 8 car trains as the guard's controls were in the rear cab[unlike the Q/R/CP cars] although when 7 car trains came in, it wasn't a problem!), but for OPO the T/op needs to see most of the platform!

The main point is, if trains had to uncouple in service, extra signalling would be needed and also the thru gangway proposed would be difficult to organise! Let's put it this way-the 'uncoupling' motors on the S stock won't be used a great deal as it is-especially as it will leave a huge gap where the gangway is (with very little room for shunting controls-remember no end wall to put the controls in).

[metman]

Ben-you posted before me! I didn't know the Barking trains were kept until 1949! There were supposed to be 25x 8 car trains for the Metropolitan Line and they would all run as 6 cars off peak and have a 2 car P stock DM-DM added for peak times. (I must get that R stock book!). In reality 7 car P stock trains sometimes ran (p)DM-T-(o)DM+(o)DM-(p)DM+(o)DM-(p)DM. From 1947, O/P stock started to run on the Circle line to replace the 1913/21 saloon stock in 5 car trains. (p)DM-T-(o)DM+(o)DM-(p)DM. These 18 trains were converted into CO/CP stock from 1955 and the gap in the Uxbridge service was filled by the F stock, being shifted by the new R stock-but you probably knew that!

[Ben]

Its a fascinating if somewhat mind-bending story isnt it?

Just thought it might have been a possibility to run 8 cars all day nowadays with the advent of in-cab platform CCTV, more staff on platforms, and of course SDO. Even if an entire car had to stop in tunnel, the gangway would permit safe movement of passengers through to the next car. Surely the Wimbledon branch in particular could do with anything you could shake a stick at extra?

Thanks for the extra info though metman!

[metman]

No worries-I think this extra car is going to prove a real sticking point in the next few years-and that's with just 7 cars!!

[100andthirty]

Dear All

the S stock project was started with 6, 7, and 8 car trains in mind, so we could have 8-car trains if they were right for the line. I still remember the time when 8-car trains on the District wer abolished. This had the advantage of making all trains the same and eliminating the problems of coupling/uncoupling. Also the nightmares of having customers boading/alighting on somewhat less than optimal (understatement) platform ends was avoided. Seven car is altogether a better fit than 8. But, I guess we might say "never say never" to 8-car Districts - but there are NO plans nor even gleams in peoples' eyes.

[tubeprune]

metman said:

Ben-you posted before me! I didn't know the Barking trains were kept until 1949! There were supposed to be 25x 8 car trains for the Metropolitan Line and they would all run as 6 cars off peak and have a 2 car P stock DM-DM added for peak times. (I must get that R stock book!). In reality 7 car P stock trains sometimes ran (p)DM-T-(o)DM+(o)DM-(p)DM+(o)DM-(p)DM. From 1947, O/P stock started to run on the Circle line to replace the 1913/21 saloon stock in 5 car trains. (p)DM-T-(o)DM+(o)DM-(p)DM. These 18 trains were converted into CO/CP stock from 1955 and the gap in the Uxbridge service was filled by the F stock, being shifted by the new R stock-but you probably knew that!

Both Circles and Hammersmiths regularly ran with O or CO cars at the ends. Most of us guards preferred it that way because we were in the rear cab and could have a smoke.

[metman]

This was as 6 cars though wasn't it? I have always thought the guard in the rear cab was a better idea. The C69/77, D78 and 73ts had guards in their rear cabs didn't they? Did the 83ts ever use guards or were they opo from the start?

[tubeprune]

metman said:

This was as 6 cars though wasn't it?

Yes. It was normal to use P stock on the Circle. The Circle line received the PCM converted stock first but it was mostly of mixed CO and CP units. The trains were then converted to 6-cars by the addition of a trailer in each 2-car unit. The H & C retained its O (later CO) Stock exclusively until maintenance of Circle stock was transferred from Neasden to Hammersmith in 1964ish. Then it became a free-for-all.

I have always thought the guard in the rear cab was a better idea. The C69/77, D78 and 73ts had guards in their rear cabs didn't they?

Yes

Did the 83ts ever use guards or were they opo from the start?

They started off with guards.

[Deleted]

Have a look at this LURS ARTICLE on OPO, Metman.

[metman]

Really interesting Rob cheers!