Circles to Go

[metman]

tubeflight, you are not the only person, I agree, it is a crazy idea, and frankly, IF it goes wrong, I'll be there saying we told you so!

paul, some people just have to learn the hard way! Some people just don't have common sense!

In fact, you may detect I'm in a bad mood too.....

[Deleted]

Apr 18, 2009 18:33:40 GMT metman said:

tubeflight, you are not the only person, I agree, it is a crazy idea

It throws up all sorts of wierd and wonderful operational questions, doesn't it? I mean - take one small thing: how will trains' destinations on the Hammersmith - Paddington bit of the line be announced?

"This is Latimer Road. This is a Circle Line Train to Edgeware Road via Victoria"

Work that one out ...

[astock5000]

They could announce 'This is a Circle line train via Paddington and Kings Cross St Pancras' when on the Hammersmith branch, then use the same announcements that they use now, unitl they are at about Victoria, where they could change to 'This is a Circle line train to Edgware Road'.

[Deleted]

Read on another forum that TFL are going to have a trail for the T-Cup service on 27/28th june 2009

[metman]

I'll be in brussels that weekend for my cousins wedding, but back Sunday evening. I shall look forward to seeing the destination indicators whilst waiting for my comfortable A stock train home! (unless there is engineering works!)

[Deleted]

Jun 16, 2009 22:02:47 GMT @anthony263 said:

Read on another forum that TFL are going to have a trail for the T-Cup service on 27/28th june 2009

The trial dates are;
• 27 /28 June
• 4/5 July
• 24/25 October
No doubt these dates will be a stunning success, however the real test will be in December when the timetable comes in!

[Phil]

Jun 17, 2009 1:29:11 GMT @linecontroller66 said:

No doubt these dates will be a stunning success, however the real test will be in December when the timetable comes in!

Not exactly - a good idea in principle , but a 'one-sided' test only. In other words if it goes t**s up on a weekend they KNOW they've got trouble , but if it goes well they've still no idea how it'll work in the weekday peaks and with service disruptions . Worth doing IMHO, even if a limited experiment.

[citysig]

The timetable being used has - I have heard - a couple of simulated "peaks" to show what may happen. That said, we run the same frequencies on the H&C and Circle during both the off-peak and peak. It's only the additional Met trains which can snarl things up.

If all goes to plan, those travelling over those weekends - especially on the Hammersmith branch - won't know what's hit them. They are used to engineering works and 10-minute frequencies.

Interestingly, there will be additional staff rostered on for most of the critical grades. Dedicated technical staff based at Edgware Road iin case the points at Praed Street fail. Extra train and duty manager staff. A couple of extra signalling staff. However, no extra Line Controllers... I'll say no more here...

[Deleted]

There's no 'simulated peak' in the trial ops C&H TTN

It operates an off peak pattern (with existing off peak run times), which is as you say the same as the peak in terms of frequencies/pattern

There is a period on the Saturday afternoon approx 1430 - 1830 when trains run east of Whitechapel to fully replicate the Dec 09 off peak service

For the rest of the Saturday and all day Sunday all trains terminate at Whitechapel

[mrfs42]

Tut.

Still no H&C to Barking on a Sunday. Peh!

;D ;D ;D

[citysig]

Jun 17, 2009 10:21:16 GMT @shedcompnodosh said:

There's no 'simulated peak' in the trial ops C&H TTN

It operates an off peak pattern (with existing off peak run times), which is as you say the same as the peak in terms of frequencies/pattern

There is a period on the Saturday afternoon approx 1430 - 1830 when trains run east of Whitechapel to fully replicate the Dec 09 off peak service

For the rest of the Saturday and all day Sunday all trains terminate at Whitechapel

This reply re-inforces every point I've ever made about quite a few things.

1. The information I have is typical of what we get in the good old mushroom factory (for those unfamiliar with this analogy, we're kept in the dark and fed brown stuff.)

2. The test weekends will definately be un-realistic, and as my colleague earlier stated, the true chaos will not be seen until December.

Shedcompnodosh, if you truly are in a position to hand this out as proper information, then kindly unmask yourself to at least me and linecontroller66. Should we learn that you are in a position of authority, then at the very least start giving us the information where we should hear it from. It is ridiculous that I am only kept informed about the railway I control by means of logging into a forum. I am on duty for at least 2 of the weekends, and yet so far I'm heading into it more or less blindfolded, apart from communication concerning staff numbers - or lack of them where I sit. Thank you.

[Deleted]

I'd be one of as many as 820 people who could be in a position to hand this out as proper information

that, I believe, is the circulation figure at the bottom of the printed timetable notice that I caught sight of yesterday!

[Colin]

Jun 17, 2009 10:59:20 GMT @citysig said:

It is ridiculous that I am only kept informed about the railway I control by means of logging into a forum. I am on duty for at least 2 of the weekends, and yet so far I'm heading into it more or less blindfolded, apart from communication concerning staff numbers - or lack of them where I sit.

Do you not think the rest of us ought to be equally treated to the same information you seek? Surely it would be beneficial to both drivers and station staff if they were kept in the loop? At least then we could all sing from the same song sheet and achieve the same goal.

Reality is somewhat different however, whether it be train crew depots, stations or service control.

I would however suggest - and this is keeping in mind the fact I am awaiting a training date for service controller - that as a controller you can potentially have any problem at any instance on the day, and the way you'll deal with those problems won't be any different to what you do today. As with any WTT, it'll either work or it won't and you'll never find that out until you work it.

If I'm wrong (as I'm not in the grade - you are), fair enough - but if I'm right, you don't really have much of basis for saying you need to be more informed than the rest of us.

[Alight]

Apr 22, 2009 18:37:53 GMT astock5000 said:

They could announce 'This is a Circle line train via Paddington and Kings Cross St Pancras' when on the Hammersmith branch, then use the same announcements that they use now, unitl they are at about Victoria, where they could change to 'This is a Circle line train to Edgware Road'.

This could still be potentially confusing! We'll have to wait and see on the trials!

[Deleted]

Just seen the special working duties for those weekends. I thought they'd made a mistake and given us the District sheets. over 4 hours on the same train? Unheard of on the C&H thanks to stepbacks and the 3 circles agreement.

Ouch.

[Colin]

Jun 17, 2009 17:27:40 GMT @prakash said:

Just seen the special working duties for those weekends. I thought they'd made a mistake and given us the District sheets. over 4 hours on the same train? Unheard of on the C&H thanks to stepbacks and the 3 circles agreement.

Ouch.

See - that's what happens when you lot crawl round trying to loose a Circle!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

Welcome to the world of proper duties ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Jun 17, 2009 17:27:40 GMT @prakash said:

Just seen the special working duties for those weekends. I thought they'd made a mistake and given us the District sheets. over 4 hours on the same train? Unheard of on the C&H thanks to stepbacks and the 3 circles agreement.

Ouch.

I couldn't quite believe that one when it was being sold to us. As an ex T/Op, the more trains you had then the less handle turning you did due to the stepbacks in your duty. I was most surprised when informed by senior management that the amount of pickups had been greatly reduced and that this would be welcomed by the T/Ops at the depots in question and would relieve a lot of the pressure on Service Control. Unfortunately, and as usual no one in management seems to have grasped this, the more pick ups there are then the easier it is for us to reform the service where things have gone wrong. It also allows T/Ops time to get a drink or nip to the loo. Another chance lost to improve things!!

[Deleted]

I could navigate the underground system with my eyes shut, but this new arrangement could even catch us tube travelling veterans like myself out at first!

Just to clarify, am I correct in saying that outside of those three weekends, the circle line will operate as the circle and NOT as the teacup?

[Colin]

That is correct.

[Chris M]

Jun 17, 2009 17:27:40 GMT @prakash said:

Just seen the special working duties for those weekends. I thought they'd made a mistake and given us the District sheets. over 4 hours on the same train? Unheard of on the C&H thanks to stepbacks and the 3 circles agreement.

Ouch.

Depending on how the "3 circles agreement" is phrased, I can imagine any union person adopting a "work to rule"/letter of the law mentality objecting to any duty that involves more than three Edgware Road-Tower Hill-Edgware Road trips.
So Hamemrsmith-Edgware Road-Kings Cross-Tower Hill-HSK-Edgware Road is one tip, the return journey to Hammersmith is a second trip, the next trip Hamemrsmith-Edgware Road-Kings Cross-Tower Hill-HSK-Edgware Road is number 3, and whoops that's the limit train sat down at Edgware Road.

[Colin]

I would think the 3 Circles agreement would be null & void.

It only exists because drivers are in the same cab, on the same seat, and could theoretically do 4 circles - the Professional Train Drivers agreement allows for a max driving period of 4 hours 15 minutes - the T cup service pattern removes the problem as drivers will change ends after each "Circle".

[citysig]

Jun 17, 2009 17:13:57 GMT Colin said:

If I'm wrong (as I'm not in the grade - you are), fair enough - but if I'm right, you don't really have much of basis for saying you need to be more informed than the rest of us.

I never said I needed to be informed more[/b][/u] more than everyone else. I said I needed to be informed.

If you are successful in getting into the grade, you will quickly learn that the controller is the one-stop-shop for everything. If somebody doesn't know something, they ring the controller. So whilst everyone should be kept in the loop, one of the key people who certainly needs to know what's going on is the controller.

As for simply running a service, then yes the principles are pretty much the same for all services. However, it is advantageous to get a proper heads-up on what's running, and be able to pinpoint where any early stablers are, strings of pick-ups, strange moves etc. etc. so you are ready to deal with the service as a whole.

Keep in mind that, unlike all other lines, it's not just one service or line that the Met Controller manages.

Strangely enough (or maybe not if it's someone spying here) a little more information came my way yesterday, and hopefully very soon (i.e. today) I may be able to have a proper look at the actual timetable in operation that day.

[Colin]

In which case I have misunderstood the point you were making, for which I apologise.

As for you potentially gaining something as a result of your posting on the forum, we've always said this forum is watched by influential people within LU......

[Oracle]

we've always said this forum is watched by influential people within LU......

..and as I have said before, ad nauseam, we knew that the same was the case with Underground News. It was a 'joke' when I was a member and Editor of Underground that 'high-ups' often learned what was going on from reading UN! Circumspection was the order of the day then, as now.

There are of course other Forums relating to transport in London. Some time back one relating to buses was closed-down because of unecessary personal vitriole that came to the notice of the person concerned. After warnings and requests had been given it seems.

[mikebuzz]

Sorry for the long post, just caught up on the whole thread and I have a few questions.

1. Is the increase in Hammersmith branch frequency part of some deal with Westfield that involved financial contribution or influence from the developers as hinted at on this thread? Perhaps the service changes are a sop to the developers and if they go wrong TfL can just turn around and say 'it doesn't work, we're changing it back'. Keeping the same names and signs would certainly help.

2. Are there any stations on the Circle route which could be used for terminators from both directions as per Loughton? For example, could Aldgate, Tower Hill, Gloucester Road, HSK etc be a destination from both directions (clockwise and anti-clockwise)? This could be useful if a no-circle option is tried out in future where the remaining sub-surface lines take over former circle services as extra branches. Alternatively, if they want/need to reinstate the Circle but without the Hammersmith branch they could have a simple end to end terminus at one of the stations (or more flexible arrangements involving multiple destinations but all on the circle).

3. Without new trains, signalling, training, new points, a lot of expensive alteration and construction etc, is it possible to increase service frequency from Hammersmith without decreasing clockwise combined frequencies from the Circle and Wimbleware?

4. A costly option is linking Chiltern with Wimbleware via a new link from west of Praed Street Junction to (north of) Marylebone. This must be the shortest and cheapest way of extending Wimbleware and completely taking it away from the the circle/H&C east of Praed Street (call the whole line Chiltern). The Hammersmith branch could be linked to it too.

Is the Circle deep enough - or is there enough space - to tunnel off it from west of Praed Street? How feasible is it to divert the H&C into the new line headed for Marylebone?

5. Assuming the West London Line gets metro frequencies eventually how feasible is a new 'Earl's Court West' interchange station on the WLL (assuming no Olympia shuttle existed), District Acton line and Picc? Is West Kensington - perhaps with extended platforms - close enough to be linked to a new WLL station?

6. Would the Olympia shuttle shutting (with the new interchange further west replacing it) improve service options from both district branches to both sides of the circle through Earl's Court (including higher frequencies if Wimbleware is linked to Chiltern)? Certainly it would simplify it for the public.

7. How feasible is 4-tracking from Praed Street to Edgware Road and using the sidings for an extra platform?


The SSR could be simplified to a Circle Line with the branch out from both directions to Aldgate East and branches in both directions to Earl's Court and branching to Wimbledon and Acton etc with the Wimbleware branch terminating at Edgware Road (or extended to the Chiltern...) and another branch entering at Baker Street. That would mean Met, District and Circle lines. With the Chiltern option you get effectively 3 branches off a circle (from Aldgate, Earl's Court and Baker Street/Marylebone joining the Circle in both directions) meaning only two lines down each section of 2-track circle (i.e. Circle plus one).

That leaves the Hammersmith branch which could be connected to Wimbleware-Chiltern (see above) or the Bakerloo line either way possibly freeing up Paddington terminal space.

As for Paddington, how about Paddington (Mainline) and Paddington (Praed Street).

[Colin]

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

Sorry for the long post, just caught up on the whole thread and I have a few questions.

A few?!! ;D ;D ;D

Let's see what we can do about yer questions then...

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

1. Is the increase in Hammersmith branch frequency part of some deal with Westfield that involved financial contribution or influence from the developers as hinted at on this thread? Perhaps the service changes are a sop to the developers and if they go wrong TfL can just turn around and say 'it doesn't work, we're changing it back'. Keeping the same names and signs would certainly help.

Well it's my understanding (ie, I'm open to correction if I've got the wrong end of the stick) that Westfield was built on TfL owned land, so whether the developers needed a sweetener or not is questionable IMO. The fact of the matter is that the Hammersmith & City line is a line in it's own right, so running the Circles to Hammersmith ought to be seen as a bonus by-product.

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

2. Are there any stations on the Circle route which could be used for terminators from both directions as per Loughton? For example, could Aldgate, Tower Hill, Gloucester Road, HSK etc be a destination from both directions (clockwise and anti-clockwise)?

The simple answer is no. On the south side, which is the only part I really know, Embankment & South Ken can be used both ways - but only as a last resort - they are not conducive to regular reversing. Edgware Road on the North side would certainly qualify though!!

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

This could be useful if a no-circle option is tried out in future where the remaining sub-surface lines take over former circle services as extra branches.

I suspect that suggestion would possibly fit in better within the fantasy suggestions board below....

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

Alternatively, if they want/need to reinstate the Circle but without the Hammersmith branch they could have a simple end to end terminus at one of the stations (or more flexible arrangements involving multiple destinations but all on the circle).

Multiple destinations on the Circle? Interesting

As for re-instating the Circle minus the Hammersmith branch, that's dead easy! As the H&C will be unchanged at that end of the line, they can simply re-instate the timetable currently in use today.

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

3. Without new trains, signalling, training, new points, a lot of expensive alteration and construction etc, is it possible to increase service frequency from Hammersmith without decreasing clockwise combined frequencies from the Circle and Wimbleware?

Ermm.....that's precisely what is happening come December when the T-Cup service starts!!

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

4. A costly option is linking Chiltern with Wimbleware via a new link from west of Praed Street Junction to (north of) Marylebone. This must be the shortest and cheapest way of extending Wimbleware and completely taking it away from the the circle/H&C east of Praed Street (call the whole line Chiltern). The Hammersmith branch could be linked to it too.

Is the Circle deep enough - or is there enough space - to tunnel off it from west of Praed Street? How feasible is it to divert the H&C into the new line headed for Marylebone?

No idea if that's even possible, but I would imagine that's a connection that's not really justified TBH - might be another for the fantasy suggestions board?

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

5. Assuming the West London Line gets metro frequencies eventually how feasible is a new 'Earl's Court West' interchange station on the WLL (assuming no Olympia shuttle existed), District Acton line and Picc? Is West Kensington - perhaps with extended platforms - close enough to be linked to a new WLL station?

What's the point when there is a perfectly adequate station/interchange just up the road at West Brompton?

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

6. Would the Olympia shuttle shutting (with the new interchange further west replacing it) improve service options from both district branches to both sides of the circle through Earl's Court (including higher frequencies if Wimbleware is linked to Chiltern)? Certainly it would simplify it for the public.

There's no doubting taking the Olympia's off would make life easier at Earls Court, but I think I've already dismissed your justifications for doing so.

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

7. How feasible is 4-tracking from Praed Street to Edgware Road and using the sidings for an extra platform?

I wouldn't have thought the cost could ever be justified.

Jun 18, 2009 17:43:23 GMT mikebuzz said:

The SSR could be simplified to a Circle Line with the branch out from both directions to Aldgate East and branches in both directions to Earl's Court and branching to Wimbledon and Acton etc with the Wimbleware branch terminating at Edgware Road (or extended to the Chiltern...) and another branch entering at Baker Street. That would mean Met, District and Circle lines. With the Chiltern option you get effectively 3 branches off a circle (from Aldgate, Earl's Court and Baker Street/Marylebone joining the Circle in both directions) meaning only two lines down each section of 2-track circle (i.e. Circle plus one).

That leaves the Hammersmith branch which could be connected to Wimbleware-Chiltern (see above) or the Bakerloo line either way possibly freeing up Paddington terminal space.

As for Paddington, how about Paddington (Mainline) and Paddington (Praed Street).

All of that definitely belongs in the fantasy suggestions board I'm afraid.

[mikebuzz]

Thanks for the response. I wasn't trying to publicise proposals or justify them on cost grounds, was just trying to see whether particular possibilities are feasible. Any suggestions are in relation to the new service and what it impacts on, or alternatives to it.

I had no idea the suggestion of an alternative service pattern or modification to a section of route was exclusive to the 'fantasy' forum. I must have misread this thread or misinterpreted all the Moorgate and deep level tube suggestions and diagrams.

And there was me trying to keep things modest by avoiding whole new tunnels across the north-central area (which would be feasible but very costly).

Jun 18, 2009 18:40:52 GMT Colin said:

The simple answer is no. On the south side, which is the only part I really know, Embankment & South Ken can be used both ways - but only as a last resort - they are not conducive to regular reversing. Edgware Road on the North side would certainly qualify though!!

Yes or no? Do you mean Edgware Road could do the job but not very well?

3. Without new trains, signalling, training, new points, a lot of expensive alteration and construction etc, is it possible to increase service frequency from Hammersmith without decreasing clockwise combined frequencies from the Circle and Wimbleware?

Ermm.....that's precisely what is happening come December when the T-Cup service starts!!

So you're saying the Circle and Wimbleware frequencies into Edgware Road clockwise are not being decreased?

5. Assuming the West London Line gets metro frequencies eventually how feasible is a new 'Earl's Court West' interchange station on the WLL (assuming no Olympia shuttle existed), District Acton line and Picc? Is West Kensington - perhaps with extended platforms - close enough to be linked to a new WLL station?

What's the point when there is a perfectly adequate station/interchange just up the road at West Brompton?

Mainly for Picc line both ways and District line from Acton (plus of course many outward bound trains wouldn't be going to Wimbledon...) if the Olympia shuttle were stopped but I would agree hardly essential. Would the Olympia shuttle be missed without some improved interchange facilities elsewhere?

There's no doubting taking the Olympia's off would make life easier at Earls Court, but I think I've already dismissed your justifications for doing so.

How? Could you clarify please???

[Colin]

Jun 18, 2009 19:42:21 GMT mikebuzz said:

Thanks for the response. I wasn't trying to publicise proposals or justify them on cost grounds, was just trying to see whether particular possibilities are feasible. Any suggestions are in relation to the new service and what it impacts on, or alternatives to it.

I had no idea the suggestion of an alternative service pattern or modification to a section of route was exclusive to the 'fantasy' forum. I must have misread this thread or misinterpreted all the Moorgate and deep level tube suggestions and diagrams.

And there was me trying to keep things modest by avoiding whole new tunnels across the north-central area (which would be feasible but very costly).

The very first post in this thread is almost a year old to the day - the fantasy suggestions board was created six months ago, and was created because of the stuff in the earlier part of this thread among other things!

You are a relatively new member so don't worry too much about my comments - perhaps I could offer an olive branch by way of a belated welcome!

Jun 18, 2009 19:42:21 GMT mikebuzz said:

Yes or no? Do you mean Edgware Road could do the job but not very well?

Edgware Road is quite flexible as trains can reverse in some of the platforms without getting in the way of anything else - that is happening today. At the likes of South Ken & Embankment, you cannot reverse a train without delaying everything else around it.

So in essence, only one station on the entire Circle matches your suggestion.

Jun 18, 2009 19:42:21 GMT mikebuzz said:

So you're saying the Circle and Wimbleware frequencies into Edgware Road clockwise are not being decreased?

Not as far as I know, no.

Jun 18, 2009 19:42:21 GMT mikebuzz said:

Would the Olympia shuttle be missed without some improved interchange facilities elsewhere?

There's no doubting taking the Olympia's off would make life easier at Earls Court, but I think I've already dismissed your justifications for doing so.

How? Could you clarify please???

Would the Olympias be missed? by those who use it, yes of course - and on days when there's an exhibition on it would be problematic; but exhibitions are on the decrease so who knows.

The Olympia's are planned to be reduced from four to three an hour in December, so we'll have to see how that works out.

As for removing the Olympia's altogether and your question regarding clarification; I'm not too sure which bit you want clarifying...

If it was regarding my dismissing your suggestion of closing Olympia station in favour of a new WLL station at "West Earls Court" or West Kensington - I don't think that would happen as West Brompton is too close (and adequate enough), and the A4/Lille Bridge depot are too much of an obstacle to overcome.

If however it was my suggestion that the Olympia's get in the way at Earls Court - from High Street Ken, they come into platform 4 at Earls Court then have to cross all the lines to the west of the station to reach Olympia. That might only happen four times an hour but Earls Court can easily go belly up very quickly (I never realised how quickly till I sat with a signaller and watched the area a few weeks back); with those four trains out of the equation, things would be so much easier.

They can also get in the way on the Eastbound as they join trains from two branches (Ealing & Richmond) before reaching Earls Court. During the peaks extra trains come from Ealing Common depot and that adds pressure to the single track the three branches use in reaching Earls Court. Again if those four trains from Olympia didn't get in the way, things would run a lot smoother.

[citysig]

Jun 18, 2009 10:27:49 GMT Colin said:

As for you potentially gaining something as a result of your posting on the forum, we've always said this forum is watched by influential people within LU......

Oh yes. I have very strong suspicions that this place, and most likely this thread are being watched by one individual who, how can I put it (without giving the game away or putting myself in an awkward position) is quite interested in how things turn out.

Incidentally I have now been furnished with all the information required. One of the items may only be a timetable, but it makes for very interesting reading...

[mikebuzz]

Yes thanks Colin for the clarification and I know not to veer too far!



If the Olympia shuttle were dropped there would only be one extra change for most people going to Olympia and other destinations via WLL LO services. Other users would go to Westfields, Clapham Junction etc but not enough to warrant a new interchange. Those already on a Wimbledon-bound District train or not already on a Picc line or District Ealing/Richmond line service wouldn't be affected anyway.

With the shuttle gone (and some signalling and line improvements?), reliability is improved and frequencies increased through Earl's Court but the extra trains would still have to be accommodated on the circle. That would be a good trade off IMO: no more Olympia shuttle but extra District/Wimbleware trains on the circle. Obviously depends on circle capacity.

OK, the Olympia thing is tenuous to the Circle/H&C but extra Districts might mean fewer Circle line trains or otherwise impact on Edgware Road.



If the Hammersmith branch and Wimbleware were be taken out of the equation then a Circle line with one terminus on it would be better than continuous running though I appreciate this is into fantasy territory.



So the increased H&C trains past Praed Street Junction and into Edgware Road are not now resulting in fewer Wimbleware trains between HSK and Edgware Road or Circle line frequency around the whole circle? I guess its wait and see if the new service is workable.