Circles to Go

[Harsig]

Jun 19, 2009 23:49:26 GMT mrfs42 said:

Ditto for the TD/Train Indicator panels, which answers (and possibly poses) a few more questions about Circle TDs. I note that there are 15 slots for possible indications. How very, very, interesting - fifteen, eh?

Thank-you Dstock7080, that goes a long way to explaining a hunch about the current system.

Here is a rather poor image of the Baker Street Describers. I believe it was taken some time after they had been taken out of use. However it does appear to show almost everything illuminated.

In case you can't read the bottom of the third column I believe it says:

For Stations
Kingsbury to Stanmore
Change at Wembley Park

and below that

For Stations
West Hampstead to Neasden
Change At Finchley Road

[Deleted]

Jun 20, 2009 10:40:59 GMT @citysig said:

Indeed, when I was one of the resident signalmen there years ago, I often used to tell visitors how it was one of the oldest signal cabins on the system. There were always tales (and some have been said on this forum before) that the frame was never intended for Edgware Road, which is why the layout of the frame and cabin equipment is how it is.

The frame / cabin will more than adequately cope with December's new timetable. Infact, signalman permitting, it could cope with alot more.

The real foreseen problem is the outside equipment - in particular 26 and 27 points which are Praed Street Junction. These were renewed recently (last year) and instead of being air-operated points, they are electric and take slightly longer to throw.

On a typical signal frame such as the one in Edgware Road, you pull the points lever from the normal, alllow the indication to drop out, then a second or so later the reverse indication shows, and you pul the lever fully reverse. There can be a tendancy to allow the points to "tell you" when they are thrown. By this I mean that you will be able to "feel" the reverse indication pop up, and move the lever without having to specifically look at the frame visual.

With the electric points, the original levers are used, but this time the signalman has to exercise caution to ensure the points have properly thrown, with full indication etc. before attempting to move the lever fully reverse. The feeling is not identical to the air operated ones. If the signalman simply tugs on the lever before they have done their stuff (as you can with air-operated points) the points and point circuitry lose themselves, and become stuck in the "mid." This is the classic faiure.

It is by no means the signallers fault if this happens. The points are designed to be thrown by non-human means. For example, via a keyswitch, which takes away the human element and allows a remote system to look after the throwing of the levers / points etc.

Met control, my first posting as an R.O.A was Edgware Road box, trained with a great signalman who lived around the corner, Mr Bradbury I recall, sorry off topic happy days so long ago, soon learned the frame of course.

Edited - merged two posts into one - TC

[Ben]

To me, that indicator board seems very simple to follow, and quicker to grasp than a scrolling LED indicator. Why is it they are frowned upon now?

[citysig]

Jun 20, 2009 19:24:41 GMT norbitonflyer said:

I feel a list coming on:

Acton Town*
Turnham Green
Barons Court*
Earls Court (two)
Finchley Road*
Wembley Park*
Harrow on the Hill
(*junction between SSL and tube line)

You missed one, the flyunder at Westbourne Park taking the H&C under the GWR. The large majority of those though are merely "positioning" maneuvers, and not proper full-on junction type things. That said, even if we say they are all proper junctions (Finchley Road surely cannot be classed as one - the met is simply coming out of the tunnel and doesn't have a connection with the Jubilee until north of the station ) there's still only half a dozen or so on the whole of SSR. Some tubelines have that many on their own.

Jun 20, 2009 19:24:41 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Getting back on topic, TfL's "forthcoming service disruptions" webpage makes no mention of the changes to the Circle Line planned for travellers' amusement next weekend.

Without prior warning I expect we will see lots of Kings Cross or Baker St to Notting Hill passengers either ending up at Hammersmith (if the T-cups are called "Circle Line") or waiting for ever for a Circle Line train (if the T-cups are called "Hammersmith").

I think the powers that be have been mislead into thinking the Circle Line is running - because it is not technically suspended for any part of it. So it would appear it has slipped through the net for now.

Certainly makes you doubt all the extra publicity they claimed would be put out before the proper change.

Mind you, if it's like this weekend, no amount of publicity / station and train announcements etc. etc. will stop people doing what they think best - like all those probably still waiting for a westbound Hammersmith train at Kings Cross since yesterday morning ;D

[Phil]

It'll be interesting if/when prakash and co. tell us what they've been instructed to put up on the blinds for the various journeys - and whether they're to change'em mid trip.

I daresay someone will finally think of it some hours after the earlies have booked on..................

[norbitonflyer]

Jun 21, 2009 7:13:18 GMT @citysig said:

Jun 20, 2009 19:24:41 GMT norbitonflyer said:

I feel a list coming on:

Acton Town*
Turnham Green
Barons Court*
Earls Court (two)
Finchley Road*
Wembley Park*
Harrow on the Hill
(*junction between SSL and tube line)

You missed one, the flyunder at Westbourne Park taking the H&C under the GWR.

I didn't count that as there is no actual junction there (although there used to be, to allow GWR trains over the Met). I didn't count Barking, for the same reason.

Jun 21, 2009 7:13:18 GMT @citysig said:

That said, even if we say they are all proper junctions (Finchley Road surely cannot be classed as one - the met is simply coming out of the tunnel and doesn't have a connection with the Jubilee until north of the station)

The fact that the platforms come between the junction and the dive-under doesn't disqualify it in my view - Raynes Park has that layout - nor the fact that the divergence is not completed until distance further on (Baker Street!)
In all these arrangements two double (or more) track routes converge by one route straddling the other, to avoid a flat junction.

[Deleted]

Jun 21, 2009 7:25:21 GMT Phil said:

It'll be interesting if/when prakash and co. tell us what they've been instructed to put up on the blinds for the various journeys - and whether they're to change'em mid trip.

I daresay someone will finally think of it some hours after the earlies have booked on..................

The TTN shows:
Hammersmith - Edgware Road as Circle throughout
Edgware Road - Hammersmith as Circle to Aldgate and then Hammersmith

[pgb]

Jun 21, 2009 9:01:09 GMT @lnwrelectric said:

The TTN shows:
Hammersmith - Edgware Road as Circle throughout
Edgware Road - Hammersmith as Circle to Aldgate and then Hammersmith

Now that'll confuse the public then who want a anti-clockwise Circle Line at Liverpool Street then!

[Colin]

The direction this thread has taken has got me thinking; all this T-cup stuff is purely for the benefit of LU's operational requirements - I wonder at what point it becomes for the benefit of the travelling public (ie, the one's we are actually providing a service for)?

Has anyone given that point serious consideration up to now?

[SE13]

Jun 21, 2009 16:14:24 GMT Colin said:

The direction this thread has taken has got me thinking; all this T-cup stuff is purely for the benefit of LU's operational requirements - I wonder at what point it becomes for the benefit of the travelling public (ie, the one's we are actually providing a service for)?

Has anyone given that point serious consideration up to now?

Now, I was going to post something along those lines, especially given the moves proposed by the bus company I work for, which do nothing other than benefit themselves and screw the passengers.

However, as a certain bus company containing the names Stage and Coach are now threatening action against employees speaking their minds, I'll just sit and watch.....

[norbitonflyer]

Jun 21, 2009 15:39:42 GMT pgb said:

Jun 21, 2009 9:01:09 GMT @lnwrelectric said:

The TTN shows:
Hammersmith - Edgware Road as Circle throughout
Edgware Road - Hammersmith as Circle to Aldgate and then Hammersmith

Now that'll confuse the public then who want a anti-clockwise Circle Line at Liverpool Street then!

It shouldn't - there will effectively be no such trains. Most users know the rule "if no through train is shown, take the first train and change where necessary", even if the indicators don't specifically say so.

[Chris M]

Jun 17, 2009 22:47:23 GMT Chris M said:

Depending on how the "3 circles agreement" is phrased, I can imagine any union person adopting a "work to rule"/letter of the law mentality objecting to any duty that involves more than three Edgware Road-Tower Hill-Edgware Road trips.
So Hamemrsmith-Edgware Road-Kings Cross-Tower Hill-HSK-Edgware Road is one tip, the return journey to Hammersmith is a second trip, the next trip Hamemrsmith-Edgware Road-Kings Cross-Tower Hill-HSK-Edgware Road is number 3, and whoops that's the limit train sat down at Edgware Road.

Jun 18, 2009 9:51:58 GMT Colin said:

I would think the 3 Circles agreement would be null & void.

It only exists because drivers are in the same cab, on the same seat, and could theoretically do 4 circles - the Professional Train Drivers agreement allows for a max driving period of 4 hours 15 minutes - the T cup service pattern removes the problem as drivers will change ends after each "Circle".

That was the reason for its introduction (or rather, I have no reason to doubt what you say, I don't actually know) but agreements like this tend to only specify what has been agreed, not why it has been agreed. If this is the case with the "3 Circles" agreement, the exact wording of the agreement and exact definition (if any) of what constitutes 1 Circle (for example, whether the direction of travel or changes of driving cab are mentioned) will be very relevant if a union official wishes to make a point about the new service and/or duties.

Sorry for the very belated reply on this, but I've only just remembered I didn't actually follow it up (although I meant to).

[Deleted]

Jun 21, 2009 9:01:09 GMT @lnwrelectric said:

Jun 21, 2009 7:25:21 GMT Phil said:

It'll be interesting if/when prakash and co. tell us what they've been instructed to put up on the blinds for the various journeys - and whether they're to change'em mid trip.

I daresay someone will finally think of it some hours after the earlies have booked on..................

The TTN shows:
Hammersmith - Edgware Road as Circle throughout
Edgware Road - Hammersmith as Circle to Aldgate and then Hammersmith

Beat me to it.

[max]

Jun 21, 2009 19:18:19 GMT norbitonflyer said:

It shouldn't - there will effectively be no such trains. Most users know the rule "if no through train is shown, take the first train and change where necessary", even if the indicators don't specifically say so.

From the point of view of a user, at some points of the network, through services might not be available, but even from a map, it is possible to work out where to go in order to pick them up.

But in the case of Liverpool Street anti-clockwise, this is a case where an advertised line is not going to be available. There will be all those signs saying Circle Line WB, but the trains will have vanished forever. I often get bemused passengers at Liverpool Street asking for help (I'm not staff, I must just look sensible). I hate to think what it is going to be like.

Of course, the Circle isn't a proper line at all, its one of the services that is run by C stock. Were it not for the fact that its all going to become S-Stock soon, I would have suggested making all the C-Stock services one colour, and calling it something like 'Orbital Line', and showing the interchange at Edgware Road properly.

[Deleted]

I was rather assuming that come the start of these services proper in December, that the map will be redrawn to reflect the circle not being continuious. The internal briefings have shown the yellow line as running outside the pink one from Liverpool Street all the way to Hammersmith, whilst inside the green line from High Street to stop next to it at Edgware Road, so not shown as continuios. Then there's the car diagrams ... i'm assuming changes to platform signage is less likely, unless it's a sticker over the enamel!

If there are odd through trips, then perhaps a broken yellow line* connection should be shown. (There should really be a broken green line* to reflect the other ocassional workings around Earl's Court that the maps infer aren't possible, but that's a thread in it's own right !!)

*= marked "Limited through service"

[johnb]

Jun 21, 2009 16:14:24 GMT Colin said:

The direction this thread has taken has got me thinking; all this T-cup stuff is purely for the benefit of LU's operational requirements - I wonder at what point it becomes for the benefit of the travelling public (ie, the one's we are actually providing a service for)?

Has anyone given that point serious consideration up to now?

Speaking as a member of the travelling public, if providing a service that's better aligned to operational requirements makes things less likely to go wrong, at the expense of some very minor cuts in journey opportunities, that's definitely to my benefit!

[Deleted]

Jun 22, 2009 13:07:21 GMT @johnb said:

Jun 21, 2009 16:14:24 GMT Colin said:

The direction this thread has taken has got me thinking; all this T-cup stuff is purely for the benefit of LU's operational requirements - I wonder at what point it becomes for the benefit of the travelling public (ie, the one's we are actually providing a service for)?

Has anyone given that point serious consideration up to now?

Speaking as a member of the travelling public, if providing a service that's better aligned to operational requirements makes things less likely to go wrong, at the expense of some very minor cuts in journey opportunities, that's definitely to my benefit!

The problem with this service is that when things go wrong, it will take longer to get back to timetabled working. There is very little slack in this timetable and trains will be going to all points of the compass to try to get them back to their scheduled working. I'm not looking forward to this at all. I don't think there is much benefit to our passengers(oh sorry, I mean customers) at all.

[Phil]

Further thought - have the DVAs been programmed with the new service? And if so, will that too change at Aldgate on the inner rail going towards Hammersmith??

[Deleted]

Jun 22, 2009 14:52:52 GMT Phil said:

Further thought - have the DVAs been programmed with the new service? And if so, will that too change at Aldgate on the inner rail going towards Hammersmith??

Nope, DVAs still can't cope with Aldgate trips on the H&C or Hammersmith trips from Aldgate. Circle Line announcements also can't cope with a terminus station (theoretically you can set this up but the terminus isn't announced - which kind of defeats the object. When you select Circle Line it doesn't allow Hammersmith as a destination anyway.)

The driver still has to manually click OK to make it work properly at the new Wood Lane and the station afterwards.

Bizarrely you can set up an H&C trip from Hammersmith to Upminster which is helpful...

[citysig]

Jun 21, 2009 16:14:24 GMT Colin said:

The direction this thread has taken has got me thinking; all this T-cup stuff is purely for the benefit of LU's operational requirements - I wonder at what point it becomes for the benefit of the travelling public (ie, the one's we are actually providing a service for)?

Has anyone given that point serious consideration up to now?

If you mean away from this forum, then yes, in amongst all the blurb, there is a little bit about the Hammersmith branch receiving a new enhanced service, and reliability on all services increasing.

Which on paper it will. The service will reduce to every 10 minutes on the Circle rather than the present 8, but the new service will be more reliable and will turn up every 10 minutes, rather than every 12-16 minutes as now on occasions. I did say on paper.

But in the central area they could have achieved this with 6 circles each side, running 10 minutes apart with an hour to go round. Late-running even up to 15 minutes absorbed within 1-2 trips.

The only problem is then providing the new enhanced service to Hammersmith. But the question is, was this really needed, or will the branch merely benefit because it's the easiest place to throw trains to reverse? People say Westfield, but I don't think they've had to shut Wood Lane for over-crowding yet.

But in answer to the main part of your question, certainly between Paddington and Baker Street, how can they possibly stand up and say the new service will benefit the customer.

I would love to try an experiment (maybe I'll do it today ) and see what my managers say if I decide to reverse every single outer-rail at Edgware Road to do a Hammersmith and back trip. I won't let a single train run direct from Paddington Circle to Baker Stret. I wonder how many complaints there will be. And how hypocritical management will be when they haul me over the coals for inconveniencing our customers in this way.

[21146]

Jun 22, 2009 14:52:52 GMT Phil said:

Further thought - have the DVAs been programmed with the new service? And if so, will that too change at Aldgate on the inner rail going towards Hammersmith??

As I suspected weeks ago on here, I can see trains running around all day long showing "Circle Line" on the blind yet terminating at Hammersmith or Edgware Road...whilst other drivers will be changing the (front) blind two or three times per trip. And will alter the rear one?

[kewgardensteleport]

Jun 23, 2009 6:11:55 GMT @prakash said:

Bizarrely you can set up an H&C trip from Hammersmith to Upminster which is helpful...

Is C Stock even allowed to run to Upminster?

And I'm surprised they didn't set all the blinds to SPECIAL. Maybe they saw the un-PC slang sense of that term as too pertinent a comment on the T-cup.

[Chris M]

Jun 23, 2009 9:49:13 GMT @citysig said:

Jun 21, 2009 16:14:24 GMT Colin said:

The only problem is then providing the new enhanced service to Hammersmith. But the question is, was this really needed, or will the branch merely benefit because it's the easiest place to throw trains to reverse? People say Westfield, but I don't think they've had to shut Wood Lane for over-crowding yet.

Don't forget that Westfield is also served by Shepherd's Bush and White City on the Central Line, which provide a direct service to other shopping districts like Oxford Street and mainline interchanges at Ealing Broadway, West Ruislip and Liverpool Street (giving a faster service from the latter than the H&C). The Overground will bring in passengers from the south via Clapham Junction and the north via Willesden Junction and Watford. It's really only pax from Hammersmith that are exclusively served by the H&C with the interchanges. The interchanges to the Central at Notting Hill Gate, Bond Street and Oxford Circus providing alternatives to everyone else.

So the importance of a more frequent service from Wood Lane for Westfield is grossly over stated (imho). The real people to benefit will be the residents and commuters on the branch, and (aiui) they are some of the most lightly loaded zone 2 stations. This to me says that the Circle services deserve the higher priority.

Now if, as has been said many times on this thread previously, they terminating point was moved from Edgware Road to Moorgate 95% of the inconvenience for passengers would be eliminated, reduce safety implications at Edgware Road and Bishops Road, reduce the workload on Edgware Road signallers without increasing the criticality of Praed Street Junction (or at least not as much as the current scheme).
The key problem with this though is that it requires spending money on one of the several revised layouts at Moorgate suggested on this thread and elsewhere.

[metman]

Also you would have to mesh double the numbers of trains into the Moorgate-Edgware Rd section, ie you need to take into account the overlap in services.

[mikebuzz]

How practical or desirable would a circle and a half service be?

E.g. HSK-Moorgate-Tower Hill-HSK-Moorgate or Tower Hill-HSK-Edgware Road-Tower Hill-HSK-Edgware Road to give two clockwise examples.

Obviously the other SSR lines would be affected. Could it work if for example Olympia shuttle is cut back to Earl's Court and H&C to Paddington (or maybe 12 tph Hammersmith-Paddington, 4-6 tph running on to Moorgate or Aldgate or beyond?).

Would the overlap problem be overcome if the Circle service was HSK to South Ken plus 1?

[mrfs42]

Well, there's always the proposal from 1934/5 of the Baker Street - South Ken half-circle service.......

[Chris M]

Jun 23, 2009 17:25:14 GMT metman said:

Also you would have to mesh double the numbers of trains into the Moorgate-Edgware Rd section, ie you need to take into account the overlap in services.

One way to work around this would be to curtail either the Wimblewares at HSK and turn the equivalent number of Circles at Edgware Road

So you would have Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - HSK - Edgware Road (and return), and
Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - HSK - Edgware Road - Moorgate (and return services)

Alternatively you could leave the Wimblewares as is and stop the circle shorts at HSK rather than ERD.

How practical this would be in terms of meshing and service provision between HSK and Baker Street I leave for those far more qualified than I to determine.

[citysig]

Are you trying to make my nightmares worse ;D ;D

The easiest, cheapest way to get a reliable circle service is to have it going round and round, but with enough time for service recovery. 60 minute Circles are the only Circle trips that offer such reliability. In over 20 years in service control, the only time I've seen a Circle line service operate to the extent where you can sit back and let it look after itself is when there have been 60-minute Circles in operation.

The argument against this, is that there is no end to the service. But that is not strictly true, as you can have a "theoretical" end at Edgware Road - i.e. simply have most of the recovery / layover there. The fact the train operator doesn't change ends is irrelevant.

Maybe the way forward should have been to keep the 8-minute frequencies on both services, and simply added a Circle each side and have 64 minute trips. The only problem there is that you then have to consider space at Edgware Road and Aldgate if the service is running bang on time without any incidents, because they will end up catching each other up.

At the very least (and I'm probably raking over old ground already trodden in this thread and others) the service on the Circle should have remained "self-contained" in the new timetable, to prevent problems on either line from affecting reliability on both. One hiccup on the Hammersmith branch will now leave you with delays on the Circle - which doesn't generally happen now.

[max]

The trouble is that for people who specifically want the Circle service, Aldgate and Edgware Road are particularly bad places to park trains for timekeeping purposes.

The number of times I have sat in Edgware Road W/B looking at the time, wondering whether I am going to miss a main line train at Paddington, or at Aldgate, wondering whether I would have been better off going to Aldgate East and picking up the District Line.

[metman]

I've often talked about providing additional layover spots to achieve this. For example, adding an extra platform at Sth Ken or making Mansion Ho bay a through road. Now Moorgate is finished, perhaps making a few alterations in the Barbican area would allow another resting spot?