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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 11:15:06 GMT
Are you trying to make my nightmares worse ;D ;D The easiest, cheapest way to get a reliable circle service is to have it going round and round, but with enough time for service recovery. 60 minute Circles are the only Circle trips that offer such reliability. In over 20 years in service control, the only time I've seen a Circle line service operate to the extent where you can sit back and let it look after itself is when there have been 60-minute Circles in operation. The argument against this, is that there is no end to the service. But that is not strictly true, as you can have a "theoretical" end at Edgware Road - i.e. simply have most of the recovery / layover there. The fact the train operator doesn't change ends is irrelevant. Maybe the way forward should have been to keep the 8-minute frequencies on both services, and simply added a Circle each side and have 64 minute trips. The only problem there is that you then have to consider space at Edgware Road and Aldgate if the service is running bang on time without any incidents, because they will end up catching each other up. At the very least (and I'm probably raking over old ground already trodden in this thread and others) the service on the Circle should have remained "self-contained" in the new timetable, to prevent problems on either line from affecting reliability on both. One hiccup on the Hammersmith branch will now leave you with delays on the Circle - which doesn't generally happen now. I myself prefer the 6 Circles either side, and an hour to get around. The Outer can be regulated at Gloucester Road and the Inners at Aldgate. If one does catch up, then they can be pushed through slightly early and be further regulated at ERD. As my learned friend says, a problem on the Hammersmith Road will cause delays on the Circle, which really isn't acceptable. Personally, I don't think this timetable or service pattern will be around for too long, well I hope not anyway! |
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Post by kewgardensteleport on Jun 24, 2009 11:56:45 GMT
The trouble is that for people who specifically want the Circle service, Aldgate and Edgware Road are particularly bad places to park trains for timekeeping purposes. The number of times I have sat in Edgware Road W/B looking at the time, wondering whether I am going to miss a main line train at Paddington, or at Aldgate, wondering whether I would have been better off going to Aldgate East and picking up the District Line. Presumably the right place for timing delays would be Embankment. Or maybe Victoria. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 24, 2009 14:25:28 GMT
Presumably the right place for timing delays would be Embankment. Or maybe Victoria. OTTOMH, St James' Park IR and Temple OR currently could 'cope' with ½ minute stand time; but you don't really want to add anything there as one way you are racing to Gloucester Road, the other you're fighting to get Tower Hill/Manky House/Minories. Stand time at Embankment would tie up Temple OR; Victoria OR is a possible from memory, but the IR would give blocking back to Sloane Sq. very easily. However, this is half-remembered and may have no basis in fact.  |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 24, 2009 16:22:43 GMT
The reason it's better to have stand time at Gloucester Road for outers, and Aldgate for inners, is that the Circles use dedicated platforms and don't affect anything else.
Having stand time at the likes of Embankment helps nobody as you're just gonna hold everything else up - in fact Embankment east really isn't a good idea as the starter at Westminster is an auto......so your next train will be sat in the tunnel awaiting movement.
As for St James Park (both) & (Victoria both), the starters are auto's, so you can't hold anything there anyway - and the starters for the stations in rear also have auto station starters.....more trains sat in tunnels!! (if it were actually possible)
Of course stand time in the timetable is actually recovery time - so if the train is running late, it can absorb the recovery time by not being held; but if the train is running on time or early (it does happen, honest!!), the stand time has to be accommodated without creating the situation of trains backing up between stations in tunnels.
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Post by kewgardensteleport on Jun 24, 2009 17:45:08 GMT
The reason it's better to have stand time at Gloucester Road for outers, and Aldgate for inners, is that the Circles use dedicated platforms and don't affect anything else. I'm aware of that. I was speaking hypothetically about where such facilities *should* be placed to maximize passenger convenience. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 18:10:38 GMT
Hypothetically, and assuming you had a pile of money for reconstruction, I would say Victoria and Kings Cross would be the best places to deal with Circle timing. A lot of the Circle line passengers get on and off at these two, and there's a chance of catching an overtaking train if you're going a few stops further down the line in either direction.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 24, 2009 18:58:32 GMT
Just got my weekly e-mail from TfL:
Interesting way of putting it!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 24, 2009 22:27:15 GMT
Barbican is the obvious choice. My thoughts on using all four platforms are somewhere on here (not a clue where though!), with the access to loops being just east of Farringdon and just west of Moorgate. That would require minimal civils work. The Island platform in the center could become exclusively for circles and or terminators? Its a duff place to reverse trains, but should millions and millions be spent on trying to link the tunnels east of Moorgate for what would operationaly have the same effect? This could be done relatively cheaply.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 22:45:37 GMT
Barbican is the obvious choice. My thoughts on using all four platforms are somewhere on here (not a clue where though!), with the access to loops being just east of Farringdon and just west of Moorgate. That would require minimal civils work. The Island platform in the center could become exclusively for circles and or terminators? Its a duff place to reverse trains, but should millions and millions be spent on trying to link the tunnels east of Moorgate for what would operationaly have the same effect? This could be done relatively cheaply. Sounds like a plan. I'd go further and use Moorgate for sidings, connected via Barbican, since the 7 car upgrade will apparently cause a shortage. Again, minimal cost involved. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 24, 2009 23:26:42 GMT
I should be getting some information soon on when the Wimblewares were extended to Aldgate - OK it was only on a Saturday in 1982 - but it will make for some interesting reading, comparing it to the Circle and Met. No 2 services of the era.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jun 25, 2009 0:37:58 GMT
A source has told me of a rumour that they will be, Biolizard...
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Post by ruislip on Jun 25, 2009 3:40:20 GMT
I should be getting some information soon on when the Wimblewares were extended to Aldgate - OK it was only on a Saturday in 1982 - but it will make for some interesting reading, comparing it to the Circle and Met. No 2 services of the era. Wasn't that in 1972? |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 25, 2009 6:05:53 GMT
I should be getting some information soon on when the Wimblewares were extended to Aldgate - OK it was only on a Saturday in 1982 - but it will make for some interesting reading, comparing it to the Circle and Met. No 2 services of the era. Wasn't that in 1972? No; District Line TTN 97/82 Special Arrangements for the Papal Visit 29/5/82. |
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Post by citysig on Jun 25, 2009 11:06:51 GMT
OTTOMH, St James' Park IR and Temple OR currently could 'cope' with ½ minute stand time; but you don't really want to add anything there as one way you are racing to Gloucester Road, the other you're fighting to get Tower Hill/Manky House/Minories. If you study the timetable (as I know you do) you will see littered amongst numerous trips the odd ½-1 minute here and there, even at places like Liverpool Street or Embankment. Of course, in the great scheme of things these are barely felt by the service, but every little helps. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 25, 2009 11:29:59 GMT
I do indeed look for 12+34, 12a34, 12E34, 12f34 et al. Perhaps slightly excessive interest but looking at how an 'a' changes to a 'c' or moves timing points and becomes a 'b' between ordinary WTTs and TTNs is part of the absorbing <er..> charm of timetables - bring back the dagger marks of the old Met. WTTs I say!
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Post by citysig on Jun 25, 2009 11:36:38 GMT
I do indeed look for 12+34, 12a34, 12E34, 12f34 et al. Perhaps slightly excessive interest but looking at how an 'a' changes to a 'c' or moves timing points and becomes a 'b' between ordinary WTTs and TTNs is part of the absorbing <er..> charm of timetables - bring back the dagger marks of the old Met. WTTs I say! There are people on here who know me personally, and would (do) enjoy many fun-filled minutes dedicated to reminding me what I say / admit to on this forum. So can I just say that I can see the interest, and have noticed the odd thing in the past and leave it at that  |
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Post by Harsig on Jun 25, 2009 11:48:03 GMT
There are people on here who know me personally, and would (do) enjoy many fun-filled minutes dedicated to reminding me what I say / admit to on this forum. So can I just say that I can see the interest, and have noticed the odd thing in the past and leave it at that Duly noted ;D |
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Post by 21146 on Jun 25, 2009 19:01:22 GMT
I should be getting some information soon on when the Wimblewares were extended to Aldgate - OK it was only on a Saturday in 1982 - but it will make for some interesting reading, comparing it to the Circle and Met. No 2 services of the era. I wonder if this was when I took this? - www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2740938023/ |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 26, 2009 0:11:07 GMT
Possibly - I'll give you a time when/if I can - if after a gap of 59 years a time can be sorted, 27 years is mere chickenfeed.
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Post by ruislip on Jun 26, 2009 21:55:20 GMT
Speaking of Wimblewares on the top end of the Circle, are there any scheduled trains in the early morning from Aldgate to Wimbledon? I noticed one on the TFL departure boards a while back.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 27, 2009 13:05:43 GMT
No.
Sorry for the short the answer, but it is that simple!
All I'd add is that there are a couple of C stocks supplied by the H&C for the 'Wimblewares', but they are brought from Hammersmith and are handed over at Edgware Road - same thing in reverse occurs in the evening.
Moral of the story is never trust what you see on TfL's departure boards. In any case, aside from being a possible phantom description or train, you may have seen an engineering train or possibly a special football train (they have run special football trains for Chelsea games in the past, from Barking to Parsons Green via Kings Cross - but they are extremely rare one off's, usually as a result of engineering works on the District's central section).
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 27, 2009 18:50:32 GMT
The live departure boards make interesting reading today - at the time of writing we have an Outer Rail Circle line train approaching Notting Hill Gate,
Liverpool Street (and stations further west) all had an Inner Rail at Aldgate, which then became a Hammersmith when it arrived at Liverpool Street. What did the actual boards on the platform say?
We also have a "Circle Line Outer Rail" service in platform 2 at Edgware Road.
How is the trial run for the T-Cup going in real life?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2009 19:07:47 GMT
The live departure boards make interesting reading today - at the time of writing we have an Outer Rail Circle line train approaching Notting Hill Gate, Liverpool Street (and stations further west) all had an Inner Rail at Aldgate, which then became a Hammersmith when it arrived at Liverpool Street. What did the actual boards on the platform say? We also have a "Circle Line Outer Rail" service in platform 2 at Edgware Road. How is the trial run for the T-Cup going in real life? Just what I was about to ask, and I notice also from the tfl website that all SSR routes are running normally, despite the mini-monsoon! |
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Post by superteacher on Jun 27, 2009 20:13:29 GMT
Trains coming from Hammersmith to the outer rail circle were showing "Circle Line" on the front. On the way back starting from Edgware Road, they were showing "Circle Line"until Aldgate, after which they became "Hammersmith." There were numerous people on platforms waiting for a Circle Line. Personally, I think the advice given to passengers about this was poor. Tney needed big posters, and far more announcements on platforms.
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Post by Alight on Jun 27, 2009 21:06:18 GMT
Is anyone able to comment on how the DVA systems coped? I'm guessing the software got updated to reflect the service?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2009 21:39:10 GMT
I noticed a large poster about the t-cup trial service to day at Cardiff central and the poster was pretty big. It was advising passengers to use the hammersmith & city lines platforms at paddington if they wanted to travel to baker st etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 17:30:58 GMT
Is anyone able to comment on how the DVA systems coped? I'm guessing the software got updated to reflect the service? I used the H&C/Circle from Hammersmith yesterday and there were no on-board automated anouncements at all. |
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Post by superteacher on Jun 28, 2009 19:10:50 GMT
Is anyone able to comment on how the DVA systems coped? I'm guessing the software got updated to reflect the service? I used the H&C/Circle from Hammersmith yesterday and there were no on-board automated anouncements at all. Yes I found this was the case too. |
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Post by citysig on Jun 28, 2009 21:51:06 GMT
Speaking of Wimblewares on the top end of the Circle, are there any scheduled trains in the early morning from Aldgate to Wimbledon? I noticed one on the TFL departure boards a while back. This can occur, but is rare and is not a published train. However, that said, if the stock that Colin mentions is not available from Hammersmith depot, a train already "on the road" may be diverted to cover for the shortage - with the driver relieved by the District driver at Edgware Road. Sometimes such a move is pro-actively displayed as a District Line destination from Liverpool Street onwards. The live departure boards make interesting reading today - at the time of writing we have an Outer Rail Circle line train approaching Notting Hill Gate, Liverpool Street (and stations further west) all had an Inner Rail at Aldgate, which then became a Hammersmith when it arrived at Liverpool Street. What did the actual boards on the platform say? We also have a "Circle Line Outer Rail" service in platform 2 at Edgware Road. How is the trial run for the T-Cup going in real life? A lot of what you have seen is the in-ability of trackernet (our internal train-watching system that has been spoken of before) coupled with some limitations in signalling equipment. The Outer Rail at Notting Hill Gate will be shown due to Trackernet thinking it's a Circle (as it has seen it at Gloucester Road.) The platform discribers may have shown it differently. The Inner Rail discription is due to the fact that the Aldgate site will be sent only Circle Line descriptions from Tower Hill. Hammersmith is not an option as, of course, the "Hammersmith" available to the signalling system is for a Westbound trip from Tower Hill, not an eastbound. Once the train leaves Aldgate, the description updates and becomes corrected to Hammersmith. The rogue Circle Line at Edgware Road is the same as the one at Notting Hill Gate. All of these customer items (and many others from staff) will be looked into after the trials - some can probably be sorted by the time we reach next weekend. Whether all will be sorted by December I doubt. |
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Post by 21146 on Jun 29, 2009 11:42:03 GMT
Is anyone able to comment on how the DVA systems coped? I'm guessing the software got updated to reflect the service? I used the H&C/Circle from Hammersmith yesterday and there were no on-board automated anouncements at all. So there are some advantages after all? |
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