Circles to Go

[21146]

A user's eye view:

diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/

[Phil]

Yes - but an informed user. Pity the rest!

How many H&C 'Whitechapels' were running over the weekend, and how many will be running in December? I ask coz very little has been mentioned of these services, and unlike before (when things were relatively obvious) the visitors and tourists could really get caught out the way things are not announced so far. Not to modify the DVA seems a negative step - - unless they think it's unnecessary coz the tests will show the idea's a non-goer.

[Colin]

Come December there will be no Whitechapels - all H&C's will go to Plaistow or Barking (6tph / 10 min service). The reason there has been nothing really said regarding the H&C's is that there is relatively little change in the grand scheme of things.

Whitechapel will disappear as a reversing point owing to the modifications needed for Crossrail - West Ham will have a centre siding installed, accessible from either direction as a replacement.

[norbitonflyer]

Reading the various accounts on the Diamondgeezer blog linked above, I think you could remove some confusion if you swapped the platforms for Wimblewares and terminating Circles. On Saturday, it was reported, what you got was a intending eastbound passengers on platform 1 suddenly presented with a "Circle Line" train on the opposite face (platform 2) - a train which they saw arrive from the west! They would be much less likely to be led into temptation by such a train if it was out of sight over the bridge on platform 3.

I like the story of the school party going from the LT Museum to Bayswater via South Ken: a teacher who's done his homework - that was the easiest way to make the journey with only one change.

Of course, more homework would have revealed that Holborn is quite close to the LTM, and Queensway is VERY close to Bayswater!

[DrOne]

VERY minor point but if you read the name strictly won't all Hammersmith trains become "Hammersmith & City" if the change goes ahead?

The few extra H&Cs Whitechapel-Plaistow will be very welcome.

[Deleted]

Jun 29, 2009 19:09:01 GMT norbitonflyer said:

I like the story of the school party going from the LT Museum to Bayswater via South Ken: a teacher who's done his homework - that was the easiest way to make the journey with only one change.

Of course, more homework would have revealed that Holborn is quite close to the LTM, and Queensway is VERY close to Bayswater!

I have actually managed to find a positive in all this. W2 residents will I think in future only use Bayswater for journeys to the west and south* - when we want to go to Baker Street and beyond we'll go to Royal Oak which (if I've understood all this aright) will have 12 trains an hour to stations to L'pool St. And the tourists won't know this either...

Perhaps my next trick should be to try to get the 436 bus extended from Paddington to Portobello Road and then I won't need to use the tube to get to Victoria at all!

[21146]

Excellent comment:

There was a touch of slapstick about the whole experiment this weekend.

First, there was a big poster on the platform at Paddington (Circle) indicating a “restricted service”. Restricted is a pretty odd way of describing the Circle line of the future, albeit quite accurate if you’re one of the many passengers who now have to change trains. As far as I can tell the new system has kept the interminable delays at Edgware Road but added two further irritations: the hassle of changing trains and the guessing-game of where the trains are actually going. Heading eastbound on a terminating train we were kept outside the station for almost 10 minutes waiting for a platform and were then treated to the maddening sight of the ‘through’ train on the opposite platform closing its doors and pulling out just as the doors on our train opened. The platform staff laughed. We laughed even harder when we got on the following Whitechapel train only to discover at Liverpool Street that it had been a Circle all along. Cue a mad scramble for the exits.

The geniuses at Tower Hill were at it again on Saturday night, repeatedly announcing that the platform indicators were “defective” when in fact it was the automated announcements that were incorrect. The result: everyone ignoring the correct information on the boards and listening to the totally false information broadcast over the PA. Aldgate and Aldgate East must have had their busiest Saturday evening in years with people trying to get back to where they had come from. Oh, and the new service pattern results in westbound District line trains being held at Whitechapel until the H&C westbounds have departed from the platform at the other side of the station – infuriating anyone following TfL’s own advice to change from the District to the H&C at Aldgate East. None of this was announced, you understand: you just looked out of the window in horror as the train you were aiming for pulls out in front of yours. Again, the bored platform staff at Whitechapel seemed to think this cat-and-mouse game was highly amusing. Perhaps TfL could add to the pantomime atmosphere by throwing custard pies in passengers’ faces?

All in all this would be a confusing enough system on any line, but to introduce it on a line where the trains do not have dot matrix destination displays in the carriages and several of the stations do not even have real-time indicator boards is a bit daft. It does have the advantage of giving Hammersmith passengers a proper frequency at long last, but elsewhere it was business as usual on the Circle line with yawning service gaps, misinformation and endless unexplained pauses.

[max]

Just a thought ...

With all the LED indicators going up, might it be a good idea to get some coloured ones for the surface lines. That way, the line name (e.g. reversed out of its colour) of the first train can be shown, along with the destination.

[metman]

Doubt this would happen because of the need to make all dot matrix signs visable to all.

I do agree with 21146 too. This whole plan has got disaster written all over it!

[max]

Jun 30, 2009 7:17:06 GMT metman said:

Doubt this would happen because of the need to make all dot matrix signs visable to all.

And the specific problem is?

[Chris M]

Orangey-yellow, green and red dot matrix screens are currently in use in various places around LU, so I don't see a problem with visibility. I don't know of any though that show pink, or that show more than one colour.

[max]

Jun 30, 2009 7:43:16 GMT Chris M said:

Orangey-yellow, green and red dot matrix screens are currently in use in various places around LU, so I don't see a problem with visibility. I don't know of any though that show pink, or that show more than one colour.

We have just had colour light signals with one 'lamp' installed here, it switches from red to green, just like the old searchlight signals used to. LEDs are quite small, so presumably they just have a double matrix. Pink LEDs are listed in the Maplins catalogue, which means that in theory industrial strength bright ones are doable. Not sure whether multi-colour LEDs (which are red, blue, green in a single unit) are currently industrial strength.

I was hoping to provoke a response about colour deficiency, so that I could then say: well, it was a silly choice of colours (pink-green) anyway. Given that there is so much colour used to help navigate the system anyway, trying to find ways of reinforcing this can only help network navigation, especially where different lines use the same platforms.

[Phil]

Question for the controllers:

With the likelihood of the reversing platforms at ERD both being full at times, is it straightforward to allow as many trains off the H&C at Praed Street junction as necessary till a centre platform clears?

And a rider: it's clearly stated to the public that p2 is for 'circles' and p3 for Wimblewares. How much of a 'command' is this: i.e., when it all goes pear-shaped, what trouble is there (for the controller) for doing it the other way round (Ww to 2) till things sort themselves out the controller finally wins. Or is the latter now forbidden completely?

[compsci]

The "multicolour" aspects used on NR at least are actually arrays of single colour LEDs, with the wiring to each colour set being entirely independant of that to the others, allowing a pretty much drop in replacement to an existing system.

When the signal head illuminates with a given colour, it will actually only be 1/3 on, with 2/3 black dots from the unused colours. However the overall effect is sufficient that it appears to be uniformly illuminated. Yellow is generated from dedicated wellow LEDS, rather than mixing red and green to avoid the possability of an aspect change if one of the two colours failed.

(Via Dad, who is currently having fun speccing the signalling for the Thameslink ATO system.)

[mrfs42]

Jun 30, 2009 9:04:43 GMT compsci said:

The "multicolour" aspects used on NR at least are actually arrays of single colour LEDs, with the wiring to each colour set being entirely independant of that to the others, allowing a pretty much drop in replacement to an existing system.

Very true - however the LED arrays in signals - Dorman, WESTLED et al are pitched at a viewer with no colour vision abberations. DMIs need to cater for those with imperfect colour vision and as such the two types of array (signal vs DMI) are incompatible.

[max]

I think that many people are going into orbit about what exactly is required about the DDA. What often seems to happen is that the DDA is interpreted over-zealously by someone at the top with an axe to grind, and then the Chinese whispers as information is communicated down an organisation results in interpretations becoming more and more outlandish . Colour combinations that might put some poeple in difficulty (if colour were the only source of information) are already to be seen on maps and signage on the Underground.

Is anyone here seriously trying to suggest that an LED display with the words "Hammersmith via Shepherd's Bush" with thick pink band underneath it to reinforce the information contravenes the DDA in any way? In which case, why not have a thick pink band with "Hammersmith & City Line" reversed out of it?

[mrfs42]

Certainly not - I was drawing a distinguishing line between the two types of audience - drivers/motormen vs. public.

[metman]

I don't fancy seeing Purple on the board! I'd struggle to read that!

[max]

White letters on a purple background?

Trouble is that pink is too close to purple, but a service revamp is a good time to change colours, although as I noticed at Farringdon the other day, they haven't caught up with the current set yet.

[cetacean]

In Japan the various Shinkansen (bullet train) services are differentiated by name and colour, and there are full colour LED departure boards that do exactly what Max says.

(and also alternate between Japanese and English, display the train formation along with the location of first class and reversed/unreserved carriages, and the train number)

See the left hand column here:
www.flickr.com/photos/dgmckelvey/111170359/

[Dstock7080]

Suppliers to the transport industry:
tinyurl.com/ne8zfx

[max]

Very nice.

Come on TfL, 21st Century and all that!

[citysig]

Jun 30, 2009 8:10:51 GMT Phil said:

Question for the controllers:

With the likelihood of the reversing platforms at ERD both being full at times, is it straightforward to allow as many trains off the H&C at Praed Street junction as necessary till a centre platform clears?

And a rider: it's clearly stated to the public that p2 is for 'circles' and p3 for Wimblewares. How much of a 'command' is this: i.e., when it all goes pear-shaped, what trouble is there (for the controller) for doing it the other way round (Ww to 2) till things sort themselves out the controller finally wins. Or is the latter now forbidden completely?

I think, from what I saw on Sunday, the middle platforms will be full nearly all of the time.

In theory, the booked service, if running bang on time, will see a train approach outside just as the preceeding train is leaving. If there is a delay, then the next approaching terminating train can be held at Paddington if caught early enough. Subsequent services can then be held at Bayswater / Notting Hill Gate and finally High Street Ken if it is that serious - however by this point the service would be starting to turn back (hopefully). The more likely outcome would be, if possible, extending the first train through to, say, Moorgate or Aldgate to reverse.

So the simple answer to your question is yes, in theory, the service from the Circle could be held away from Edgware Road in favour of the H&C, up to a point.

In answer to your second point:

The routing of trains always has been, and still remains the duty of the signaller, and they do have a lovely get-out clause that I always used when people queried platforming: "The signaller may alter the routing of trains as necessary in the best interests of the service."

Therefore, if the signaller needs to go "off platform" for the purposes of keeping the railway moving, then they have my blessing. We have many information tools at our disposal on stations, so a simple platform change should not be a problem.

The current service has its booked platforms, and generally the "regulars" will know their District Line will reverse in either 2 or 3 at Edgware Road. However, they soon adapt when the train is put into the opposite platform.

[Deleted]

I've noticed buses in Belgium and/or France with a large multi-coloured LED display for the route number. They can show pretty much any colour convincingly - the route number is shown black or white on a background matching the line colour on the bus route map.

[upfast]

MetControl - Say a train is stuck in platform 2 or 3 that isn't going to move will you still be allowed to bring the next train into platform 1 and carry out a reform or stock and crew to get things going? Or would this be prohibited under the new service?

[dannyofelmpark]

from reading mr diamond geezers page i can see where its gone wrong

1, Edgware road needs 2 extra platforms built for terminating t-cups

2, or why not turn back some met line trains at baker street to make room for some t-cup line trains to terminate at moorgate

3, seems to me that at the weekend L.U.L wanted to hide what they were doing and not explain why they were changing things thereby giving an impression that it was more like a spontainius service delay rather than a revised service

also branding it as CIRCLE LINE still makes people think that its the normal circle line. Branding it as T-CUP LINE would draw more attention to the new service and make people forget about the old circle line

4, train blinds seemed to be all over the place, displaying circle line on a train leaving hammersmith does not help.

it should be display liverpool street up to baker street and then circle line

as a suggestion could platform staff be made availible to change rear blinds at certain stations? or maybe rear blinds should be left blank

im not saying that the new t-cup line is a disaster, lul just need to realise that edgware road needs expanding and the public need reasurance that its all for a good reason and to have it publicised better

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2009 10:25:56 GMT max said:

I think that many people are going into orbit about what exactly is required about the DDA. What often seems to happen is that the DDA is interpreted over-zealously by someone at the top with an axe to grind, and then the Chinese whispers as information is communicated down an organisation results in interpretations becoming more and more outlandish

TfL have been doing exactly this on the buses side.

Also on the buses side the only requirement for the display of route information (by whatever means) in respect of colour is that the colours should be contrasting. (any colour of illuminated LED on a black background would meet that requirement).

[Deleted]

The Circle should become the Hammersmith & Circle

then the Hammersmith & City could either stay the same, or become the Hammersmith & Barking, or revert back to the Metropolitan (or even Hammersmith & Metropolitan) or something completely different. Erm...
The Regent line??

[Tomcakes]

Jun 29, 2009 22:57:44 GMT @21146 said:

The geniuses at Tower Hill were at it again on Saturday night, repeatedly announcing that the platform indicators were “defective” when in fact it was the automated announcements that were incorrect.

Aah, but we couldn't possibly turn them off - after all, the bonuses depend on them so they'll stay on - stuff whether it's right or not!

[21146]

Tower Hill tonight - "train describers are showing incorrect information". Well if staff are announcing and aware of this then why haven't they turned them off, and if they can't then why not?