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Post by nigethehippy on Jul 12, 2008 16:57:18 GMT
Hello All,
Just to introduce myself...I'm not a railway person, although I come originally from Crewe & my dad was a signaling engineer.
Anyway not beating about the bush, I sent an email to "Tubeprune" and he suggested I posted it here, so here's a copy...
Recently there was a discussion on an old computers forum about vintage machines "In the wild" I mentioned that the VAT and Child Benefit Mainframes both date from the mid '70s, and somebody else mentioned that some of the computers used for signaling on the underground were from the 70s, but were being replaced.
Well my jaw dropped, I have a particular fondness for one of the machines, as the test-bed machine was in the next area to me in the computer repair workshop where I worked in the late '80s, a big blue machine, with core stores & Blinkenlights. I can't for the life of me remember what it was called, but it filled the workshop with a kind of respectful hush when it ran up, (or maybe it was just the noise of the blowers!).
Do they still exist? I know that London underground were trying to phase them out even then, but couldn't get a decent working alternative. There was even a major crisis when Granada TV (who bought the company) borrowed the test bed machine (against it's keeper's better judgment) for use as a prop in a TV drama, and planted pyrotechnic charges all over it to "blow it up", it took weeks of work to get it going again, meanwhile the field engineers ran out of working boards, and were praying to any available god that an irreplaceable bit wouldn't go faulty.
If one does exist still and hasn't been de-commissioned yet, I'd love to see/film one running (give one a home???) if at all possible, even if security required me to go in wearing nothing but my undies!
Yours in rapt anticipation
Nigel Bailey
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2008 17:32:25 GMT
never seen one but baker street had some old relics lying around im sure tom will come to the rescure
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 12, 2008 18:06:12 GMT
Channelling COLIN: you may find this thread to be of use/interest: Metal Mickey, Mummy Bear and Daddy Bear Edit: I've also got a copy of the relevant year of the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers (1981/2) Proceedings with a longish article on the computerisation of the east end of the Picc.; if you're interested. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 1:43:27 GMT
I had the privilege last week of seeing the Interlocking Machine Room at Parsons Green. The majority of the equipment there dated from before the 1970s as far as I could see - the "program machines" used punched rolls of paper!
The technical officer showed me a cabinet of more modern equipment in the IMR which he said was about 4 years old but didn't work as they could no longer get parts for it, but they could still get the relay switches for the older equipment!
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Post by nigethehippy on Jul 13, 2008 10:29:30 GMT
Well "Thanks Chaps" , Responses so far indicate that mummy & daddy bear are at least closely related to the machines I worked next to. But don't stop replying now, Forming a closer relationship with the machine ops would be really really useful for a chap I have been talking to on the Vintage computer forum, He's rebuilding a GEC4070 (?, will check model) that used to be a Prestel server, I thought his machine looked sufficiently like the one I knew, and your info confirms this. As I said, any visits would be more than a little appreciated and there's an offer of a bear sancutary should one be needed! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 10:29:32 GMT
the programme machines was installed in the 60's PG was the 2nd site to get these after Putney Bridge but they do not work(in programme mode) as they need the shunters cabinet to be manned and working which is it not so to get a train in or out of the sidings the signal op has to manually select the routes using push button mode the main however is always in first come first serve mode the other newer equipment is for the transmission of all the control lines between PG and earls court control room and its called RTU (reflex transmission unit) this was installed in 1994 the t.o was right parts are scarce but can be sought after but this is the same sysytem which transmits the data for trackernet between sites its very realible and i have only been on a fault once with it the only spare part which cannot be sort is the processor board (which adw is you was looking carefully had the fault amber light lit on it) i should start doing tours of IMR's of the district line might make a few quid  |
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 13, 2008 16:43:05 GMT
the programme machines was installed in the 60's PG was the 2nd site to get these after Putney Bridge but they do not work(in programme mode) as they need the shunters cabinet to be manned and working which is it not so to get a train in or out of the sidings the signal op has to manually select the routes using push button mode the main however is always in first come first serve mode the other newer equipment is for the transmission of all the control lines between PG and earls court control room and its called RTU (reflex transmission unit) this was installed in 1994 the t.o was right parts are scarce but can be sought after but this is the same sysytem which transmits the data for trackernet between sites its very realible and i have only been on a fault once with it the only spare part which cannot be sort is the processor board (which adw is you was looking carefully had the fault amber light lit on it) i should start doing tours of IMR's of the district line might make a few quid Interesting because I know RTU as the remote transmission unit. I didn't have a lot to do with it in my time at Earls Ct Control Room and it is part of the system I knew as WARS (Waterloo Area Resignalling). I'm not sure why the parts should be hard to come by, from what I could see they were manufactured by Transmitton of Ashby-de-la-Zouche which is the same firm that supplied the SCADA systems for the JLE and which I'm sure is still a main subcontractor. The Transmitton factory is one of the nicest places I ever spent a day, had to go there for the SCADA Cromos Express appreciation and hands on programming for JLE T/T control system. As for the Picc signalling computers they are HP1000 reputed to have been ex-missile firing computers for the US in the Vietnam War. They were installed at Cockfosters, Oakwood, Arnos Grove, Wood Green and Earls Court and operate on an X25 loop network otherwise known as the Picc Databus. Originally they were programmed on paper tapes but the paper tapes are long gone the HPs being front ended with PCs as an interface between the operator (the TO) and the HP1000. Each site had two computers to control the local interlocking with three at Earls Court to communicate with the remote sites (the third is an online spare) which all still exist AFAIK. I can tell you that sometimes it was hard work loading up the timetables especially if one of the HPs spat the dummy and wouldn't play. It got worse when the watchdog circuit didn't like what it was seeing and the standby followed the main instead of taking control. If the X25 from the control room fails the computers can be worked on local panels which are housed at Arnos Grove and of course there are still lever frames too unlike the Central line and JLE! Heathrow also has/had a pair of HP1000s front ended with PCs but these were used as programme machines, the lever frame being controlled by high speed scanning. I spent many many hours at Heathrow loading timetables, it either went well and was done in a jiffy or it went badly and took hours! Not a problem when its all that has to be done but no fun when you are alone and rushing to put the rolls on the P/Ms for the start of traffic at Acton Town, Ealing Common, Ealing Broadway, Boston Manor, Northfields and South Harrow as well. |
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Post by nigethehippy on Jul 17, 2008 11:32:36 GMT
Cheers for all that info, If we had a contract to repair the HP1000s it would probably have been at a different site. The GECs AFAIK were descendents of the ICL KDF series and we had ex ICL engineers working on them.
Any photos of the Piccadilly line setup?
I'll put a link on the Vintage computer forum to the two threads here, and alert the GEC owner.
Is there anyone I can contact re a site visit?
I'm contactable on nig dot bailey at virgin dot net,
Best wishes,
Nig.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 19, 2008 19:58:09 GMT
I've got contacts at Baker Street who deal with the computers - I can occasionally be found working on them at times when I'm over there to visit my former colleagues.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 21, 2008 20:05:30 GMT
Ditto.
Transmittion are now part of Siemens but they still do the JLE Cromos stuff.
Same kit on the Jubilee at Stanmore, Wembley Park, Willesden Green, Finchley Road and Baker Street where the HP local site computers are installed with Westinghouse V interlockings. Charing Cross also has a V frame but I'm not sure what the LSC is.
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D7666
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 21, 2008 20:34:37 GMT
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Post by d7666 on Jul 21, 2008 20:40:32 GMT
HP A600.[/quote] After I posted, I'm thinking about that myself now for those I listed above, 600s or 1000s? Perhaps I could get away with this one by saying ''similar kit'' rather than ''same kit'' ?  -- D7666 |
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Post by Tom on Jul 21, 2008 20:50:47 GMT
They were all the 1000 series. IIRC Stanmore was an A600, Wembley A900, Willesden A600, Finchley Rd A600 and Baker St A900. But, it has been a few years so I may not be 100%.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 21, 2008 21:10:18 GMT
They were all the 1000 series. IIRC Stanmore was an A600, Wembley A900, Willesden A600, Finchley Rd A600 and Baker St A900. But, it has been a few years so I may not be 100%. OK, fortunately I am on the JLE control system not the other bit :)been confused by LSC terms before. -- D7666 |
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 23, 2008 4:08:04 GMT
Same kit on the Jubilee at Stanmore, Wembley Park, Willesden Green, Finchley Road and Baker Street where the HP local site computers are installed with Westinghouse V interlockings. Charing Cross also has a V frame but I'm not sure what the LSC is. -- D7666 I did regular signal maintenance at all those sites except Baker Street but never had to touch those computers at all unlike the east end of the Picc where we reset the PCs locally. I do recall the Jub computers going off during engineering hours, I think because they were probably updated and/or reset centrally from Baker Street SCC. Charing Cross was the first V style frame I encountered that didn't have a release lever and unusually had lever 1 as a point lever IIRC. |
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Post by Harsig on Jul 23, 2008 9:34:47 GMT
Charing Cross was the first V style frame I encountered that didn't have a release lever and unusually had lever 1 as a point lever IIRC. I've always assumed that the somewhat unusual allocation of lever functions at Charing Cross was because the designers had half an eye on the intended final arrangement when the line was extended beyond Charing Cross. e.g. No 1 points would have been removed (they are catch points leading into one of the overruns and would thus not be required when the overruns became running lines) No 1 lever could then be used to control the southbound outer home, currently a draw up TG200. |
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 23, 2008 11:55:17 GMT
Charing Cross was the first V style frame I encountered that didn't have a release lever and unusually had lever 1 as a point lever IIRC. I've always assumed that the somewhat unusual allocation of lever functions at Charing Cross was because the designers had half an eye on the intended final arrangement when the line was extended beyond Charing Cross. e.g. No 1 points would have been removed (they are catch points leading into one of the overruns and would thus not be required when the overruns became running lines) No 1 lever could then be used to control the southbound outer home, currently a draw up TG200. You are perhaps correct. Interestingly point maintenance was one of my regular duties at Charing X and from our point of view the overruns were called sidings as that was their use and the 'catch' points were known to us as 'throw offs'. I think overrun tunnels have been driven as multi purpose on many tube lines i.e. the lead to expansion should it be granted authority and for H&S following Moorgate and other incidents as well as use as sidings. As for the points I see the difference between 'catch' and 'throw off' as the former being used to safely convey runaway vehicles out of harm's way and the latter deliberately placed to derail a vehicle when driven towards the main line against the signalling. Thus 'throw off', usually single switch, points are found at the outlets to sidings across LU. This is usually coupled with current limiting to prevent a train being accelerated against the outlet signal, the consequence of which is to blow a rather large fuse in the siding traction supply. |
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Post by Tom on Jul 23, 2008 19:14:08 GMT
I think some of the designers of the original Charing X Layout are still with us (albiet not designing any more), so next time I run into them I'll ask the question.
What I do know, haing just retrieved the original IMR Illuminated diagram from my collection of signalling artefacts junk, is that there was originallly a release lever (No. 7). This was removed and the release converted to a 100% relay circuit in the mid 90s by one of my colleagues, I believe as part of JLE enabling works.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 24, 2008 2:11:02 GMT
I think some of the designers of the original Charing X Layout are still with us (albiet not designing any more), so next time I run into them I'll ask the question. What I do know, haing just retrieved the original IMR Illuminated diagram from my collection of signalling artefacts junk, is that there was originallly a release lever (No. 7). This was removed and the release converted to a 100% relay circuit in the mid 90s by one of my colleagues, I believe as part of JLE enabling works. Yep that sounds about right, I used to confuse my colleagues when testing out after doing point maintenance by referring to the release as lever thirteen! Of course it's a 12 lever frame and I guess no-one wanted to spend money for another section for the sake of one lever. Of course I understand that exactly the same has happened with the 12 lever frame at Heathrow T123 with the alterations to accommodate T5 because the spare levers were one short otherwise. |
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Post by Harsig on Jul 24, 2008 6:37:41 GMT
What I do know, haing just retrieved the original IMR Illuminated diagram from my collection of signalling artefacts junk, is that there was originallly a release lever (No. 7). This was removed and the release converted to a 100% relay circuit in the mid 90s by one of my colleagues, I believe as part of JLE enabling works. That's interesting, I wonder what they were trying to achieve because a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a TO doing a frame test at Charing Cross and he commented on the fact that there was no release lever despite lever No 7 being spare. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 25, 2008 5:52:00 GMT
Looking at the peril for the start of passenger service, I wonder if all options were being covered:
1: traps, SB line
2: Charing X SB Home
3: disc, end of pfm 4
4: disc, end of pfm 3
5: SB facing crossover (and angles)
6: NB facing crossover
7: release
8: NB starter, pfm 4
9: NB starter, pfm 3
10: traps, NB line
11: disc from siding to pfm 4
12: disc from siding to pfm 3
There are a few options here; depending on where the junction was to be: an end-on junction off the sidings is indicated on the peril, in which case 1 would indeed most logically become the outer SB Home, 4 would either become redundant or used on the SB (or a bang road shunt off the NB); likewise 10,11,12 - with 9 moving to the other side of the crossovers, then whichever of them were necessary being used on the NB with 10 becoming the starter off pfm 3.
I guess that by the time 7 was taken out of use in the 90's the decision had been made that the junction was going to be at Green Park, the decommissioning of 7 as a release lever would have offered the possibility of the junction points being controlled from Charing Cross IMR - lever 1 controlling the points in the SB; 7 controlling the points in the NB.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 26, 2008 17:31:27 GMT
What I do know, haing just retrieved the original IMR Illuminated diagram from my collection of signalling artefacts junk, is that there was originallly a release lever (No. 7). This was removed and the release converted to a 100% relay circuit in the mid 90s by one of my colleagues, I believe as part of JLE enabling works. That's interesting, I wonder what they were trying to achieve because a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a TO doing a frame test at Charing Cross and he commented on the fact that there was no release lever despite lever No 7 being spare. I'm sure that all levers were in use at Charing X for points and signals when I was doing maintenance there following the transfer of Jubilee line maintenance from the Met & Bakerloo lines to the Picc (Charing X-Stanmore) and the Northern (JLE). There was originally no Jub signal maintenance section, it having been looked after jointly by the Met and Bakerloo since devolution until the InfraCos became Metronet SSL, Metronet BCV and Tube Lines. Jub signal maintenance section was I recall being formed jointly from Northern and Picc TOs as I retired in 2005. Whatever 7's lever was being used for must have been removed unless my memory is wrong, there were certainly alterations at Charing X when the junction was installed at Green Park but those alterations occurred before I did maintenance at CHX. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2008 13:30:55 GMT
I had the privilege last week of seeing the Interlocking Machine Room at Parsons Green. The majority of the equipment there dated from before the 1970s as far as I could see - the "program machines" used punched rolls of paper! The technical officer showed me a cabinet of more modern equipment in the IMR which he said was about 4 years old but didn't work as they could no longer get parts for it, but they could still get the relay switches for the older equipment! I was in there yesterday funny enough. None of the program machines work in any mode other than manual or FCFS, there was some electrickery in a cupboard open but I had no idea what it was. Did you see the shunting stuff in the Train Crew place? |
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 7, 2008 13:52:56 GMT
Getting back to the original topic, it has been confirmed to me that the HP computers at Heathrow T123 IMR were removed as part of the T5 works and replaced with a PLC and that as part of the same works the Hatton Cross scanning has also been replaced by PLC.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2008 18:25:17 GMT
so the high speed scanning gone then?
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 8, 2008 23:14:57 GMT
so the high speed scanning gone then? That is what I have been told by one of my former colleagues. |
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Post by nigethehippy on Aug 14, 2008 11:07:10 GMT
Any ideas what happened to the old HPs then? Please don't tell me they're being turned into soft-drink cans as we speak  , I wouldn't mind looking after one of them either! |
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 14, 2008 23:06:25 GMT
Any ideas what happened to the old HPs then? Please don't tell me they're being turned into soft-drink cans as we speak , I wouldn't mind looking after one of them either! I don't know but my guess is that they will be kept as spares for the HP1000s still in use at Cockfosters, Oakwood, Arnos Grove and Wood Green. Recycling knows no bounds on the Underground and if you saw the 'book' prices for some items you'd understand why! LU uses lots of long obsolete equipment because there has never been the investment or the will to upgrade and maintain technology to a uniform standard. If you like old kit I think some of the control rooms comms equipment is still operated via PDP11s, originally they were PDP11/23s and when I last worked on them in the late 1980s they had been upgraded to PDP11/73s. PDP11s were also installed in the 1980s and 1990s as UTS station computers, usually one per line per station and IIRC there were 15 PDP11s uses as UTS concentrators at the UTS operations centre. However, the last time I poked my head into a station computer room some five or so years ago the PDP11 had been replaced with something more modern and I would not be surprised to learn that they had had a relatively short working life. |
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, I wouldn't mind looking after one of them either!
