Bakerloo To Be Cut Off At Queens Park??????

[tubedstock]

Ive heard a few rumours that when TFL get the new 378s in service the overground will provide the full service between Queens park and Harrow with the Bakerloo to finish at Queens Park, is there any truth in thsis??? Has anyone heard anything relating to this?? I was concerned enough to spend an hour at Kenton yesterday taking photos of Bakerloo Line stock with LO 313s!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deleted]

Hmm, I did hear they planned to get the Lakerboo back to Watford!

[superteacher]

I doubt that they will terminate the Bakerloo at Queens Park. There won't be a dramatic increase in frequency after the 378's enter service. Also, the Bakerloo depot is at Stonebridge Park.

The Bakerloo is now seen as the main service from Queens Park to Harrow. And as Art says, the long term plan is to extend the Bakerloo back to Watford, thus releasing the 378's to increase the services on the remainder of the London Overground network.

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2008 19:52:25 GMT superteacher said:

As Art says, the long term plan is to extend the Bakerloo back to Watford, thus releasing the 378's to increase the services on the remainder of the London Overground network.

It will need a lot of work to track and neggie rail before they can do that.

[ruislip]

When the 'Loo gets re-extended to Watford Junction, couldn't the 378s find use on other local services (Overground or otherwise) out of Euston?

[cetacean]

What other local services? The only others are the long-ish distance ones to Tring and Northampton and Crewe.

[Deleted]

The chances of the Bakerloo finishing at Queens Park are zero. There are/were plans for it to go through to Watford Junction. More interesting will be what happens to the Euston to Watford service then. As far as I can see there are a few options.
1, Run it as now
2, A Queens Park to Euston shuttle
3, a Queens Park to Camden road/New Cross via Primrose Hill service (note, this will be DC throughout)
4, Close South Hampstead and Kilburn High Road and have no NR service on this line anymore

[towerman]

The plan was/is for the Bakerloo to completely take over the Watford branch and for Overground trains to leave Euston altogether and run Queen's Pk-Stratford via Primrose Hill & Camden Rd.

[superteacher]

If Euston is no longer served by LO trains, would they stop some of the London Midland trains at Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead to prevent them closing?

[Deleted]

Towerman, I always thought that would be the best scenario.

Superteacher, LM trains are unable to stop at Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead as it is a totally different railway. The DC is self contained from Camden Jn to Watford Jn and has no OHLE.

[superteacher]

Aug 23, 2008 14:01:55 GMT @somersetchris said:

Towerman, I always thought that would be the best scenario.

Superteacher, LM trains are unable to stop at Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead as it is a totally different railway. The DC is self contained from Camden Jn to Watford Jn and has no OHLE.

My memory is a bit hazy down that way - was thinking that those stations had platforms on the main line.

[Deleted]

Only stations with platforms on the main line are Queens Park, Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone and Bushey

[superteacher]

According to Wikipedia, both stations used to have main line platforms, but closed in the 1960's. Not sure if the level of use at the stations would justify their reinstatement, if LO services were withdrawn. Apparently, there have been plans made to re-open the main line platforms at Willesden Junction.

[DrOne]

I wish stephenk did track maps for everywhere! I understand what Somersetchris says about the segregation north of Camden Jn but would anyone be able to explain how the tracks into/out of Euston are laid out or point me to somewhere with that information? I've always strugled to understand how the DC is linked to the intercity and fast lines. Thanks.

[Deleted]

The DC lines branch off/onto the slow lines at Camden Junction. They have their own independent tunnels to South Hampstead

[towerman]

There is talk of putting in platforms at Willesden Junction on the AC lines and having the all stations LM trains stop at Queen's Pk.

[Deleted]

The problem with Queens Park is that there are platforms on the slow lines only

[Deleted]

really a bakerloo shuttle between qp and euston I think would be good
and primrose hill reinstated for camden market days as camden town is always so busy

[towerman]

For a couple of years,about 10 years ago,the all stations MK trains used to stop at Queen'sPk off peak.That's all you'd need to stop there.

[Oracle]

Apart from Quails www.trackmaps.co.uk/diagrams.htm is there any track map showing the DCs down to Euston? As an aside, when the 4th rail extended to Euston, were the two tracks also equipped with OHL as well?

[towerman]

From the Euston side of Camden Tunnel where the slow AC lines meet the DC lines they're under the wires as well as current rail.

[DrOne]

Thanks somersetchris & towerman. I've seen some descriptions of the arrangement outside Euston and it seems there is a complicated set of flyovers/unders which I don't really understand. Seems pretty unique among the London rail termini for this?

And I agree if the Bakerloo eventually trots out to Watford then Queen's Pk would be a very good interchange between LM, LO and LU.

I see that the Bakerloo emerges between the DC tracks south of QP but do the DC tracks meet the slow lines at a flat junction or is there grade separation using the flyovers/unders? If I understand it correctly would the removal of the DC services enable a slight increase in capacity on the slow lines?

How would LO trains reverse at QP? Wouldn't terminating at the Willesden Junction bays be operationally less obtrusive than reversing LO trains at QP?

Sorry for the barrage of questions

[tubedstock]

Talking Of Bakerloo Past Queens Park, Ive just put a few pictures I took at Kenton A Couple Of Days Ago On My Website In August Collection www.chriswakeman.fotopic.net

[towerman]

Overground trains can reverse at Queen's Pk via the down platform,this doesn't interfere with the Bakerloo which uses the 2 middle platforms.

[cetacean]

Only by going down long single track sections either side of the Bakerloo portal. The Network Rail RUS suggested reversing in the bay(s) at Willesden Junction was much more practical - though that kills any prospect of segregation, which is one merit of cutting off the Bakerloo at QP instead.

I see that the Bakerloo emerges between the DC tracks south of QP but do the DC tracks meet the slow lines at a flat junction or is there grade separation using the flyovers/unders? If I understand it correctly would the removal of the DC services enable a slight increase in capacity on the slow lines?

Grade separated junction. At Camden Junction the DC lines are at a lower level than the slow lines, and come up in four places - on either side of the slow lines to Euston, and on either side of the branch from the slow lines to Primrose Hill.

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2008 21:40:49 GMT DrOne said:

And I agree if the Bakerloo eventually trots out to Watford then Queen's Pk would be a very good interchange between LM, LO and LU.

I think the interchanges at Euston, Harrow and Watford are enough. To have trains stop at QP as well will ruin the pathways on the WCML. The amount of people that would use QP would be quite small I think. The only interchange which would be an advantage nowadays would be one at Willesden Junction, but I cannot see anyone paying to build a new station there. Even then, most people can get to the NLL by taking LT from Euston.

[DrOne]

towerman & cetacean - so in order to terminate at QP do the LO trains terminate in the NB platform, reverse to a point beyond the Bakerloo portals before reversing again to get to the SB platform?

Thanks for explaining about the grade separation between the DC, slow and Primrose Hill lines - makes sense in relation to the freight services that run from Primrose Hill to the slow lines, and the old Watford-Broad St trains. Sounds like the original construction envisaged very intensive working around all those junctions. The Circle could do with some of those grade separated junctions!

Somersetchris - why would the addition of a stop to some of the LM services impact the WCML so negatively?

[Deleted]

The stop on the WCML would impact times considerably. The slowing down, stopping and accelerating would, I guess, put at least five minutes into the timetable.

There is a crossover between Queens Park and Kilburn High Road. This crossover is signalled so that NB trains can turn round in QP and go back to Euston. Vice versa, southbound trains can turn round in KHR platform and head north. I have even seen tubes do the latter move as it has a fourth rail for this. As can be seen, a QP to Euston shuttle will therefore not clash with any Bakerloos going north of QP.

[cetacean]

Aug 24, 2008 13:27:05 GMT DrOne said:

Thanks for explaining about the grade separation between the DC, slow and Primrose Hill lines - makes sense in relation to the freight services that run from Primrose Hill to the slow lines, and the old Watford-Broad St trains. Sounds like the original construction envisaged very intensive working around all those junctions.

Sadly only two of the four junctions are grade-separated. Trains from Primrose Hill joining the slow lines to go north conflict with southbound trains into Euston, and likewise (I think, not certain) for the DC lines.

[tubedstock]

I work for LM and we have been given no impression of any further stops to be served between Harrow and Euston, bear in mind we only currently serve Wembley Ctl 3 or 4 times a day, even a few extra stops would have a negative effect on the new WCML "masterplan" coming into effect in december.

If anyone wants to see the proposed LM timetable for December its available on the TFL site at www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/wcml/wcms2008timetables/
Bear in mind this is the original plan and many small changes have been made since.

TubeDStock