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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 8:49:39 GMT
Back in the mid 90's they (North London Rlys) tried a 30 min frequency service calling at Q Park / Wembley / Harrow / Bushey and Watford - 1 tph went to MK and the other turned at Watford Junction.Off peak only. Did miniscule business - and that was mostly abstracted from the DC line.
Looking at todays West Coast - as someone said - there are enough interchanges at Harrow Bushey etc on the core service - and as the fastlines are pretty well full , the slow lines have to deal wth a much expanded (in volume) outer commuter and national freight traffic from the ports. Stopping outer suburban trains at QP or "Willesden" might be possible but it would seriously affect capacity and be a time disbenefit to the many travellers from further out.
The section from Euston - to Queens Park is not that busy - about 50% of the traffic north of QP to Wembley as may people change to / from the Bakerloo. 3 car trains have managed for many years with no serious crowding in the peaks whilst the QP - Harrow section does need the additonal Bakerloo trains in the peak.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 11:59:35 GMT
I would have thought the only sensible reason for stopping LM (ac) services at Queens Park would be for interchange (from them) with the Bakerloo for Central London, as an alternative to going through to Euston - and that, if it is was a standard stop for LM services (not just a few), would have been successful as such.
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Post by tubedstock on Aug 25, 2008 12:07:45 GMT
The only problem is bacause pathing is so tight on the WCML, any extra stops would have to be at the sacrifice of a stop elsewhere, (eg) You could stop 2 trains per hour at Queens Park for instance but those services would then have to miss out, say, Harrow & Wealdstone. Passengers already have the option of avoiding Euston and heading straight into Central London Via the frequent Bakerloo Line services fron Harrow, stopping trains at Queens Park instead would still only put people on the Bakerloo Line as present.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 14:29:25 GMT
Has anyone ever taken a survey of what DC passengers do at arrival at Euston? I would guess by what I see, that at least 90% catch a tube. Surely if the DC did not go to Euston it would cut down on overcrowding at Euston and also disperse passengers a lot more around other lines. Not just the Bakerloo, but the Jubilee (South Hampstead to Swiss Cottage), Northern (Camden Rd to Camden) etc.
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Post by DrOne on Aug 25, 2008 18:45:04 GMT
Interesting stuff. This suggests the capacity pressures on the slow lines are due more to the mix of patterns (Tring, MK, Northampton, freight and soon Birmingham & Crewe) than the crowding of trains. A bit like the issues with the West Anglia line out of Liverpool St but with slightly less frequent passenger services?
I don’t know much about timetabling so I accept that a stop at QP would probably have negative effects on the freight services and the new long distance services. The main appeal was that it would offer considerable time savings compared with interchange at Harrow, and it would have been a reasonable way to offset the loss of DC to Euston for passengers between Harrow and QP. However they would still have the Overground and Bakerloo.
The Camden Rd/Queen’s Pk/Willesden Jn/Calpham Jn issue for terminating future overground trains is still a bit puzzling though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 19:07:56 GMT
It is good stuff from a priority point of view. Amazingly - after Fenchurch St - Euston has the highest percentage of passengers walking to destination - maybe something to do with the overcrowded Northern and Victoria lines ! (I guess a good number get the 68 bus etc) -
The issue on freight is very relevant - the slow lines need to deal with 1 x 60mph and 2 x 75m mph freights per standard hour Camden / Wembley to the North and Midlands ! Cant be ignored for UK PLC ! The standard passenger patterns is 2 TPH slow Tring , 2 fast Northampton swung over on the slow lines at Ledburn - and 2 semi fast to MK plus the Govia Southern service off the West London as a minimum - growth being about 10 per cent compound in passenger terms at the moment.
Time disbenefit of Harrow - Queens Park with 9 tph frequency on the DC is a reasononable compromise at the moment - though long term something needs to be done !
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Post by DrOne on Aug 25, 2008 19:23:40 GMT
Not to be difficult but I'm really interested in this. Your post above suggests the 2tph Northampton fasts and the 1tph Southern wouldn't be directly affected by anything going on the slow lines at QP? If the remaining 4tph for Tring/MK stopped at QP how bad would that be for freight? I feel like I'm missing something...
The WAML (which is just double track) handles 12tph of very mixed stopping between Broxbourne and Tottenham in the peaks, albeit with *significantly* less freight.
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Post by cetacean on Aug 25, 2008 21:14:48 GMT
Looking at the proposed Slow lines timetable, there are only 6 arrivals at Euston on the slow lines* in the 8am-9am peak hour, and 5 the rest of the day. Even allowing for freight trains, I can't see how a Queen's Park stop would significantly affect anything. It seems to be lack of will (or perceived demand) rather than any operational reason. (* the non-stop from Leighton Buzzard trains are probably using the fasts) |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 21:53:11 GMT
The issue on freight is very relevant - the slow lines need to deal with 1 x 60mph and 2 x 75m mph freights per standard hour Camden / Wembley to the North and Midlands ! Cant be ignored for UK PLC ! The standard passenger patterns is 2 TPH slow Tring , 2 fast Northampton swung over on the slow lines at Ledburn - and 2 semi fast to MK plus the Govia Southern service off the West London as a minimum - growth being about 10 per cent compound in passenger terms at the moment. If I've counted correctly that's four passenger, and three freight, per hour on the slow lines through QP (and are there not plans to re-route the freight off the NLL, hence away from QP?) - so it wouldn't seem too big a deal to have the passengers stop at QP. Looking at the TfL journeyplanner it gave more or less equal times from Watford Junction to Paddington changing at Euston & Oxford Circus, or Harrow & W. - my (and I suspect most people's) view would be that it would be that there's no advantage in changing at Harrow (for a slow (however frequent) tube train through Wembley & Willesden), rather than staying on to Euston. |
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Post by mrjrt on Aug 25, 2008 22:00:52 GMT
Could signalling upgrades enable he reduction of headways on the slow lines perhaps?
I also have musings of what could be possible if platforms loops were added at Watford Junction, Bushey, Harrow, Wembley, and Willesden (if/when rebuilt). I wonder if a more intensive peak hours suburban service would be possible running all slow-lines stops to Euston without detracting too much from expresses from further out. Watford could probably fill a train or two of it's own in the peaks.
If platforms were restored at Willesden, then the Southern services would no longer need to touch the slow lines at all, and could terminate at a bay at Willesden (interchanging from the LM services), as they (as in WLL services) used to (platform 11 or so, if I remember from what I read ages ago).
As for LO and the Bakerloo, I still think that extending the Bakerloo tubes to Willesden for a super interchange would be the ideal situation.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 22:08:46 GMT
Thanks for explaining about the grade separation between the DC, slow and Primrose Hill lines - makes sense in relation to the freight services that run from Primrose Hill to the slow lines, and the old Watford-Broad St trains. Sounds like the original construction envisaged very intensive working around all those junctions. Sadly only two of the four junctions are grade-separated. Trains from Primrose Hill joining the slow lines to go north conflict with southbound trains into Euston, and likewise (I think, not certain) for the DC lines. The DC line tunnels at South Hampstead while level with the main line at the north end are deeper at the south end , so that the DC line tunnels are more or less under the slow line portal. With the Dn line being deeper than the up. The two DC tunnels divide underground near the south end of the tunnels. On the Up side, the left hand fork the Up North London Electric (DC) runs under the slows and comes up between the Up North London Local (AC to Primrose Hill), and the remains of the old Up Empty Carriage line, joining the Up North London Local just north of Primrose Hill station. The right hand fork the Up DC, quickly emerges on the surface and climbs to meet the Up Slow from the field side in the middle of the Chalk Farm dip. The Dn DC forks a little further south, the right hand fork Dn DC remains in a tunnel, to emerge from the field side right at the S&C where it merges with the Dn Slow in the middle of the Chalk Farm dip. The left hand fork the Dn North London Electric (DC) passes under the Up DC before emerging beside the Dn North London Local (AC from Primrose Hill), which it joins just north of Primrose Hill Station. The Up and Dn North London Local lines join the Slow's at a double junction in the mouth of Primrose Hill Slow Line Tunnel. So the only potential for conflict with trains running in the opposite direction is between the Up Slow and the Dn North London Local. If you look at the slow line track where it emerges from the South end of Primrose Hill Tunnel, you can see that it remains level for a while before suddenly dropping in to the Chalk Farm dip. This is caused by the need to get over the Up North London Electric and Up DC. Before the track can start to descend into the dip. |
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Post by tubedstock on Aug 26, 2008 7:31:24 GMT
Sadly NR wouldnt throw any more money at the west coast to help commuters, they are already god knows how many million over budget on the work to 4 track the Trent Valley route, you only have to look at the current TV timetable and local stations in staffordshire served only by replacement buses to see that NR wont exactly give any priority to local trains if it in any way compromises the running of Mr Bransons services.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2008 9:00:53 GMT
Sadly NR wouldnt throw any more money at the west coast to help commuters, they are already god knows how many million over budget on the work to 4 track the Trent Valley route, you only have to look at the current TV timetable and local stations in staffordshire served only by replacement buses to see that NR wont exactly give any priority to local trains if it in any way compromises the running of Mr Bransons services. TubeDStock That is why I predict the DC service eventually running via Primrose Hill and not to Euston. |
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Post by cetacean on Aug 26, 2008 9:09:08 GMT
Sadly NR wouldnt throw any more money at the west coast to help commuters, they are already god knows how many million over budget on the work to 4 track the Trent Valley route Is this why they spend a huge chunk of dosh extending all of the local platforms to 12 cars and buying brand new trains? And a big part of the purpose of the 4 tracking in the Trent Valley is to be able to provide a regular service to the local stations there. |
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Post by tubedstock on Aug 26, 2008 12:22:33 GMT
Its took about 10 years to do so though, and you tell the people of Barlaston, Wedgewood and Norton Bridge about NR plans, they still wont have any service come the December 2008 timetable, also you need to realise that the 4 track is not just for the benefit of local trains, a hell of a lot more Virgin services will benefit too. Also the 12 car platforms are for Pendolinos, non of the local stations (ie Rugeley, Polesworth & Atherstone) are extended, and the new trains been purchased are.......more Pendolinos.
Places like Lichfield TV will actually have LESS Virgin services in the new timetable, replaced by 4 car LM Desiros to run ALL STATIONS to London.
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Post by cetacean on Aug 26, 2008 13:56:09 GMT
Also the 12 car platforms are for Pendolinos, non of the local stations (ie Rugeley, Polesworth & Atherstone) are extended, and the new trains been purchased are.......more Pendolinos. I'm talking about the 12 car platforms on the south WCML used by London Midland's fleet of brand new Desiros. A hell of a lot of lot of money has been invested in this aspect - it's wrong to say it was all about Virgin. |
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Post by amershamsi on Aug 26, 2008 14:51:05 GMT
Places like Lichfield TV will actually have LESS Virgin services in the new timetable, replaced by 4 car LM Desiros to run ALL STATIONS to London. If all stations to London means Tamworth, Polesworth, Atherstone, Nuneaton, Rugby and Euston - it's all stations to Rugby then non-stop to London. Also, isn't the 1tph better than Virgin service to LTV - I didn't think that Virgin stopped at these stops that often (a handful of peak and weekend trains). Rugeley, Atherstone and Poleworth aren't served by Virgin, so get a direct London train, not to mention that Manchester, Liverpool, North Wales, etc get faster services all the time, as Virgin won't stop between Stafford and Milton Keynes for non-Birmingham services. Ideally, the WCML needs HS2 to bypass the line south of Rugby (or similar). Removing the 8 (3 Birmingham, 3 Manchester, 1 Liverpool and 1 via Preston) paths from the WCML (keep the North Wales on the WCML, due to the unelectrified section), would allow better commuter services on the WCML. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2008 15:42:43 GMT
I thought that the local service was going to run to and from Northampton. 1tph to the West Mids, 1tph via the Trent Valley
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Post by cetacean on Aug 26, 2008 20:25:51 GMT
No, it's the current timetable that's split at Northampton. The future plan is an hourly service running from Crewe to Euston, calling at all stations in the Trent Valley then then only at Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes and Watford Junction, and a similar Birmingham-Euston service.
(the DfT website is currently offline, so this is from memory)
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Post by amershamsi on Aug 26, 2008 20:55:01 GMT
I thought that the local service was going to run to and from Northampton. 1tph to the West Mids, 1tph via the Trent Valley yes, you are right, first stop out of London is Northampton, not Rugby - Rugby is first stop on 1/3rd of the Birmingham Virgins (the other 2/3rds call at MK and Watford (1/3rd each) between Euston and Coventry). The future plan is an hourly service running from Crewe to Euston, calling at all stations in the Trent Valley then then only at Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes and Watford Junction, and a similar Birmingham-Euston service other than the MK and Watford stops, that's the plan... Both IIRC are called at by the Northampton terminators. |
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Post by tubedstock on Aug 27, 2008 7:17:37 GMT
Firstly In response to the comment about 12 car LM services and the new desiros, the desiros are like for like replacements for the 321s and they already run in 12 car formations in the peaks anyway, as a London Midland employee we have been given draught copies of the December Timetable, it indeed does have an hourly Euston - Crewe via the Trent Valley & Stoke!!!!!! However no hourly New St - Euston, we have been told that this timetable is not the finished product so we all happily anticipate the finished product!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe Im been a tad unfair on NR but its just frustrating trying to always explain to passengers about the number of alterations due to the ongoing dragging on over budget saga that is the West Coast upgrade!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2008 11:48:25 GMT
cetacean, thanks for clearing up that matter. Through trains will be best.
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Post by cetacean on Aug 27, 2008 13:51:13 GMT
The DfT site is back up, so you can check the draft timetable for yourself. Most of the Trent Valley trains seem to be stopping at Long Buckby, Northampton and MK, and some at Watford. The London-Birmingham situation is interesting - it seems to be deliberately engineered to not have through trains. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2008 14:50:54 GMT
The xx.54 from Euston does go through to Birmingham, just shown in a later column. Is the xx.13 from Euston a connection into it at Northampton?
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Post by tubedstock on Aug 28, 2008 6:25:34 GMT
Yes, the xx13 are plannwd to connect as the Northampton - New St will be every 30 mins.
Its funny that the DFT site has more up to date info than LM are providing its own staff!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 8:43:19 GMT
Morning
It maybe me being a bit dim, but can someone please provide the link to the draft timetable on the DFT site as I can not seem to find it?
Many thanks in advance
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Post by tubedstock on Aug 28, 2008 9:36:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 12:40:06 GMT
Yes, the xx13 are plannwd to connect as the Northampton - New St will be every 30 mins. Its funny that the DFT site has more up to date info than LM are providing its own staff!!!!!! TubeDStock I suppose that means you can really tell who is running the show  |
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