Countdown timers at Stratford

[Deleted]

This is something that both I and friends have come across recently while trying to board trains at Stratford on the Jubilee.

The countdown timer says more than 3mins so you walk down to the front of the train to get some space but then when the timer hits 3mins the doors close and the train leaves. It doesn't even say train ready in this situation (normally it does) and can even be counting down still after the trains left the platform. (Tho I have seen it come up train reday one its out of sight!)

Now can anyone ask why this is happening on more than one occasion? Ive had it happen to be in the week mainly tho friends have experienced it at the weekend when it was fairy busy. Annoying is not the word when you get half down a platform to see the train set off with the board still saying three mins.

[Oracle]

The last time we were at Stratford, a while back, the train was driven in manually by a female. The doors opened, punters got off, lady then called for the masses to get on, and whoosh, train was off again! If you were on the platform and did not get on quickly you would have been left behind.

[superteacher]

I suppose that sometimes change the order of departure to make up for late running trains. Some trains literally have a 30 second turnaround if they are late - sometimes achieved by the next driver being ready at the other end, after a crew change.

[Deleted]

Jubilee line at Stratford is a mess. I was unlucky enough to use it for 3 months this year (April to June) and it was pretty bad...

Constant changes in train departures (one train announced to depart first, but another one departs instead with announcement 10 seconds before doors close)

+

Frequest 8-10 minutes gaps in service (especial in the evening peak)

=

Commuter misery.

[Deleted]

Strangely enough, when I moved away from Stratford (yay!) and started commuting from St. John's Wood - my general impression of Jubilee improved a lot. Could it be that the old section is more reliable?? (I use Jubilee between St. John's Wood <-> Green Park)

[upfast]

Sept 9, 2008 22:20:33 GMT futurix said:

Strangely enough, when I moved away from Stratford (yay!) and started commuting from St. John's Wood - my general impression of Jubilee improved a lot. Could it be that the old section is more reliable?? (I use Jubilee between St. John's Wood <-> Green Park)

Could it have anything to do with the fact that the old section is signalled by SSR service controllers ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Who knows... may be it is because I travel only 8-9 minutes on Jubilee as compared to 26 minutes (if I was lucky!) earlier this year. And St. John's Wood is much much nicer then Stratford.

[Deleted]

This is always going to be a problem with termini where trains can depart from three (or more) platforms - as it's quite easy to end up on the "wrong" platform if you just miss a train or departure order is changed.

[Deleted]

On wednesday they announced next train is from platform 13 as the train had left.

I generally go for which train has a couple of minutes on it or no trains walk down the island platform to the bridge.

[version3point1]

Best thing to do is walk to the bridge and then have a look at what's happening from there, as it saves you walking twice as much if you miss a train and the others are on the other side anyway. When you're coming through the gateline as well, have a lookout for the grey box with 6 colour lights on (up by the emergency exit near the Jubilee gateline) – that's our repeater for the three platforms.

By the time the SCRO has got a PA out, a real-time one or one of the touchscreen, a signal might have already been cleared. Whether or not the dot matrix keeps up with this is another thing: the SCRO has probably announced the platform based on the dot matrix information (as they've got a feed for it in the Control Room), unless of course they've been told otherwise of the running order by the controller or the signal op. They're only as good as the information they get, and we cant have all our cameras pointing all at the headwall to keep an eye on what signals are getting cleared first. We did try firing up Trackernet on the big widescreen monitor we have in the Control Room as we can get all the signals up on there and see them clearing (as well as the routes being set with the points, which gives our SCRO an extra few seconds to push out a PA), but that too has quite a delay.

It's all 10 times worse when we get frequent platform changes, usually in the peak or when there's problems and three empty platforms, like what Alex has mentioned. Control Room doesn't get told anything, and even if they do it's not until the very last minute, thus you can't even ask the SAs what's going on because even we can't guarantee that what the dot matrix says is going to happen. Many a time I've sent a passenger onto a platform with a train that says there's 4 minutes, only to see the repeater in the corner of my eye put on a green for that platform. Then we've got the Line Controller (or Service Controller – whatever) having a go at Train Ops because they're late for their pick-ups, which is in fact not true, because they follow the timetable and wait at the platform the timetable says their train should be at, so if the Gods decided it's going into another platform, it's not their fault! But that causes extra hold ups, 'CORRECTION' is flashing up forever and a day on the vids 10 seconds too late and thus you have the mess that is Stratford.

Unfortunately, this has been a long-term there. I worked there for over a year before I managed to get out (and off that Jubilee line gateline!), and nothing much has changed, so it seems.

[Deleted]

To be fair to the Jubilee line operators, at Stratford there are only 3 platforms in which to turn a service of 30tph (trains per hour), meaning that on average, recovery/turn round times must be 6 minutes or less.

[Deleted]

The current Jubilee Line service in WTT No.10 has 24 trains per hour scheduled - maximum. This is between Willesden Green and North Greenwich. Of these 24 trains per hour 3tph terminate at North Greenwich and 3tph at West Ham (to Stratford Market depot). Therefore the maximum service serving Stratford is 18tph or three trains every 10 mins. Reversing time at Stratford in the peaks is about 7 or 7.5 minutes.

Alas, 30tph at Stratford won't be in the life of the current signalling - but maybe the new? We wait and see.

[astock5000]

Is 18tph the maximum amount of trains that could be reversed at Stratford then? Otherwise, wouldn't the trains that terminate at West Ham run to Stratford? I wouldn't have thought that 3tph would make much of a difference.

[towerman]

Even at 16tph,the off peak & Saturday/Sunday service,trains regularly have to wait outside Stratford for a platform to become free.

[DWS]

Feb 9, 2009 23:06:25 GMT astock5000 said:

Is 18tph the maximum amount of trains that could be reversed at Stratford then? Otherwise, wouldn't the trains that terminate at West Ham run to Stratford? I wouldn't have thought that 3tph would make much of a difference.

The trains that terminate at West Ham in the morning are trains that are returning to Stratford Market Depot, they then return to service in the afternoon via West Ham ( 2 trains go via Stratford).

[citysig]

Feb 10, 2009 0:25:54 GMT towerman said:

Even at 16tph,the off peak & Saturday/Sunday service,trains regularly have to wait outside Stratford for a platform to become free.

Don't confuse platform / signalling capacity with timetabled recovery time / early arrival at the home signals.

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2009 23:06:25 GMT astock5000 said:

Is 18tph the maximum amount of trains that could be reversed at Stratford then? Otherwise, wouldn't the trains that terminate at West Ham run to Stratford? I wouldn't have thought that 3tph would make much of a difference.

The 3tph difference between 18tph and 21tph results in a headway 28.6 seconds longer. This is pretty significant!

It should be noted that a train being taken out of service at Stratford instead of West Ham may have up to 3 extra conflicting track movements to access the depot. More conflicting movements = increased chance of delays.

Feb 9, 2009 22:55:04 GMT @reganorak said:

Alas, 30tph at Stratford won't be in the life of the current signalling - but maybe the new? We wait and see.

As Stratford is a dead end terminus with reasonably long crossover transition times, then it would be almost impossible for 30tph to be reversed there. 24tph would be a more realistic figure, maybe 27tph at a push.

Feb 10, 2009 19:11:56 GMT @citysig said:

Feb 10, 2009 0:25:54 GMT towerman said:

Even at 16tph,the off peak & Saturday/Sunday service,trains regularly have to wait outside Stratford for a platform to become free.

Don't confuse platform / signalling capacity with timetabled recovery time / early arrival at the home signals.

Precisely. A terminus which can handle 24tph, but is only handling 12tph will still have trains queuing at the home signal if they are timetabled to arrive early.

[edwin]

Feb 11, 2009 10:45:16 GMT @stephenk said:

As Stratford is a dead end terminus with reasonably long crossover transition times, then it would be almost impossible for 30tph to be reversed there. 24tph would be a more realistic figure, maybe 27tph at a push.

If this is true, how are LU going to run 30tph or over on the Jubilee line after the upgrade?

I think this has been discussed before, but there was no conclusion.

[citysig]

I am sure those familiar with the Central past and present, will agree that terminus arrival was quickened considerably by the introduction of ATO / new signalling.

Currently, whilst manually driven and using fixed signalling, Jubilee trains have to negotiate numerous speed control measures on the approach to termini. Considerable savings can be made if these alone are speeded up.

[North End]

Feb 11, 2009 19:21:37 GMT @citysig said:

I am sure those familiar with the Central past and present, will agree that terminus arrival was quickened considerably by the introduction of ATO / new signalling.

Currently, whilst manually driven and using fixed signalling, Jubilee trains have to negotiate numerous speed control measures on the approach to termini. Considerable savings can be made if these alone are speeded up.

The Central did have the benefit that they were able to put in place some quite lengthly overrun sections, at West Ruislip, and also at Epping using the old East Siding and a length of the former Ongar branch. I'm not convinced the entry to Ealing Broadway is nowadays much faster than in past times.

[Deleted]

Feb 11, 2009 18:48:38 GMT edwin said:

Feb 11, 2009 10:45:16 GMT @stephenk said:

As Stratford is a dead end terminus with reasonably long crossover transition times, then it would be almost impossible for 30tph to be reversed there. 24tph would be a more realistic figure, maybe 27tph at a push.

If this is true, how are LU going to run 30tph or over on the Jubilee line after the upgrade?

I think this has been discussed before, but there was no conclusion.

At the Stratford end it shouldn't be a problem as 24tph can be turned at Stratford, and 6tph at North Greenwich.

However at the other end, things will be interesting as tipping out will be required for trains reversing short of Stanmore!