Up behind him

[q8]

What is the, on the DR and elswhere nowadays the closest you can approach the train ahead of you in normal circumstances., and where? As I have said before in my day you could get to within 60 ft of the train in front at Cannon Street westbound. You could also get quite close while actually moving as well with the old speed control signals. For instance you could be a third of the way into Embankment eastbound platform withe the rear of the preceding train just crossing the floodgate sill at which point the last signal in the platform would clear. If you did it right you could toddle in all the way at 20mph once he had started to leave from the second speed limit sign.

I found the leaflet today that describes how they used to work. If anyone is interested I'll scan it and post it. This was in the days when we had 84 trains in the peak on the DR and a 34tph service in the central area./

[Colin]

The closest i've been to the train in front is about 2 trains lengths at Fulham Broadway and Elm Park both on the westbound. It really depends on the signals, especially with so many compromised overlaps these days.
For those who don't know, a compromised overlap in simple terms is where there is not enough distance between signals. When this occurs, the area covered by a signal is increased to make gaps between trains safer. I'm sure others can give a more detailed description, but that's the basic's.

[q8]

For those who don't know, a compromised overlap in simple terms is where there is not enough distance between signals. When this occurs, the area covered by a signal is increased to make gaps between trains safer. I'm sure others can give a more detailed description, but that's the basic's.
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Yerse that's another thing. WHAT is the reason for these here compromised overlaps? I am told for instance that if a train is standing in Elm Park eastbound platform the following train is brought to a stand at the intermediate signal by the Chase whereas in my time you could get up to to the homes. Why the difference?

[trainopd78]

I think they worked out that westcode doesn't stop a train as efficiently as a westinghouse braked train. Only taken em 20 years!! ;D Some boffin has decided that if we clobber the outer home, we'll still end up colliding with the train in the platform at elm park.

Personally, I think its a load of old tosh and there was loads of room to brake, even under the worst of conditions, but it kept somebody somewhere in employment. Its the same between Upney and Becontree too.

Notice those new draw ups at Ealing, the new draw up EE2300 at Gloucester Rd plat 2 and of course that p'liceman under Gap Rd protecting W375 towards Wimbledon. All part of the same project.

[q8]

This "safety first" thing is going way OTT now. Don't they think a driver has brains and can THINK! I suppose it's down to money agin. "Oh dear a passenger has conked his nose on the wall during hard braking" "snot fair, we have to pay out some monies for that".....effing pathetic

[Deleted]

Agreed Q8. The safety b*****it seems to be seeping into every aspect of the modern railway - longitudinal seating on the Met, anyone?

[igelkotten]

Here in Stockholm, since we have always used cab signalling, our approach to distances between trains are a bit different. It is perfectly possible, permissable and sometimes even desireable to have several trains in the same block, on the same track circuit.

Rulewise, you can approach any train in front of you as clos as ten metres from their rear, without any special permission. You will have recieved a "Low Speed/Caution" cab signalling aspect, which you would have had to acknowledge, and your maximum speed would be restricetd by the cab signalling to 15 km/h, but otherwise you can just putter on. Of course, a red signal has to be obeyed in all cases.

The new ATP signalling system used on the green line works a bit differently, and actually generates "stop points" -points where the maximum permitted speed is zero. We can still approach up to ten metres from a train, but that requires switching the ATP to "permissive working mode" to by-pass the stop point, and it is not generally used anymore. On the red and blue lines, though, you can still see trains following each other into the platforms with ten-fifteen metres between them in the peak hours.

[Colin]

Q8 said:

This "safety first" thing is going way OTT now. Don't they think a driver has brains and can THINK! I suppose it's down to money agin. "Oh dear a passenger has conked his nose on the wall during hard braking" "snot fair, we have to pay out some monies for that".....effing pathetic

Trouble is we live in that nice and cosy compensation culture now!!

[Tom]

Q8 said:

Don't they think a driver has brains and can THINK!

From some of the stories I've heard (Driver sitting on the PAC, pressing the wrong open buttons with no response, before deciding to override the correctly functioning CSDE and opening the doors on the wrong side) once one or two who don't think have proved they can't be trusted, everyone gets tarred with the same brush.

BTW, a compromised overlap is one where train could be tripped and stop outside the signal's overlap if the driver is exceeding the speed limit.

[Colin]

Thanks for correcting my understanding, Tom.

[trainopd78]

Tom said:

BTW, a compromised overlap is one where train could be tripped and stop outside the signal's overlap if the driver is exceeding the speed limit.

That makes this resignalling even worse, as there is no way that the speed limit could be exceeded in most of these cases. Up the East end, the gradients prevent the train going over 45mph, we just can't physically do it. The powers that be are definately butt covering!!!!!

[q8]

The powers that be are definitely butt covering!!!!!
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Well being as they seem to bend over a lot to satisfy the masters that ain't surprising.

[Deleted]

trainopd78 said:

Up the East end, the gradients prevent the train going over 45mph, we just can't physically do it.

You can on a decent train, especially Elm Park - Dag E. Not that I'm suggesting you should, but it is possible.

[Christopher J]

adw said:

You can on a decent train

It also depends on what Flag Switch you have raised.

Hopefully not both Flag Switches raised!

[trainopd78]

adw said:

You can on a decent train, especially Elm Park - Dag E. Not that I'm suggesting you should, but it is possible.

Elm pk to DAGE W/b is definately possible, but the signalling has been changed on the E/b from DAGE to ELM pk where its nigh on impossible unless both flags are up.

[Colin]

Well I got my closest yet yesterday. Upton Park Eastbound, as the train in front departed the multi home signals cleared one by one - so I moved forward as you do. For whatever reason the train ahead moved out really slowly, so much so that as I stopped at the stopping mark, the back of said train was only about a car length away!! I could actually read the car No. (thats the 7xxx one) very easily. Now thats quite scary come to think of it!

Before any one gets excited though, I would point out that the next stop signal is virtually an outer home for East Ham. So unless a train failed, this is not a normal occurance. It was only that train moving so slowly that allowed me to get this close.

[q8]

Now that PROVES something I have always suspected and that is that the short overlaps at starting signals is downright dangerous. It is the oly reason that trains have to slow to 5mph when running empty though a station.

I consider those short overlaps to be a danger to drivers and passengers (NOT "customers") alike and should be brought to the attention of the HSE

[Tom]

q8 said:

Now that PROVES something I have always suspected and that is that the short overlaps at starting signals is downright dangerous. It is the oly reason that trains have to slow to 5mph when running empty though a station.

I consider those short overlaps to be a danger to drivers and passengers (NOT "customers") alike and should be brought to the attention of the HSE

They already know, one copy of the scale plan for resignalling is normally sent to HMRI. They will be progressively removed as lines are resignalled.