OSIs, Oyster hand-held readers and Penalty fares

[Chris M]

This evening I made a Hounslow East to Gallions Reach journey, interchanging at Tower Hill/Tower Gateway.

Between Shadwell and Limehouse, the PSA checked tickets. I was issued a penalty fare because the last entry on his hand-held reader was my touch in at Hounslow East. I know that I touched out at Tower Hill (the barriers wouldn't have opened otherwise) and that I touched in at Tower Gateway (because when I got to Gallions Reach and tapped the reader it said "exit" and showed me the fare).

The PSA showed me the reader and the only thing on display was Hounslow East and the time I tapped in there. Is that normal when making an OSI?

I'm challenging the penalty fare, but should I pay it and then claim it back (how?) or not pay it pending the appeal? I don't want the penalty to double because they take longer than 2 days to process an appeal and then come back and say that they're right and I'm wrong (I have no way of verifying anything until my journey history shows up online in a week or so (and even then it doesn't always show every journey).

[causton]

Go to a tube station. Ask for a journey history (or one of those long receipts that shows just about everything including your journey history).

If you are correct, it will show that you were touched in on the Oyster card presented during the time you received the Penalty Fare.
Send a copy to them. How can they deny that now?

...on most trains I would advise not paying - but on TfL of course it could be £80 if you leave it too long! But I have heard it is a lot harder to get money back, than to not pay it at all and successfully fight your case. However, this is based on most National Rail TOCs... of course you are right so I wouldn't pay if it were me!

[Chris M]

Unfortunately I'm probably not going to be going near a staffed ticket office with time to do anything about asking for a receipt until Monday evening now.

[Deleted]

Chris, a similar sort of thing happened to me a few weeks ago. I made a journey from Bond St after seeing a mate there to Edgware Rd and got charged £4.00. Now I know I touched in and out and there is no way I couldn't of done. I went to the machine and looked at my history. It had penalty fared me for an INCOMPLETE JOURNEY and left a negative balance. It didn't show Bond St, the journey just said ( - Edgware Rd)

Meeting my friend the next day at Bond St, he told me that he had also been overcharged for an incomplete journey for a journey he did the day before to Bond St. This must mean there was some sort of error with the PAYG readers at Bond St that was wounding people with penalty fares for incomplete journeys and if an RCI checked my card I probably would have got a penalty fare too.

It did p!?$ me off ever so slightly but I didn't do anything about it because to be honest I didn't have time for the extra stress and bother of trying to get 2 quid or so back. But if this is happening from time to time TfL must be making an extra fortune. And people are wondering why on earth they got overcharged. So the same thing could have happened here and you were just unlucky enough to have your card checked.

I want Frank Skinner to put flippin' oyster cards into room 101.

[suncloud]

I'm assuming Chris M is talking a penalty fare notice and not an oyster maximum fare.

Having not had a penalty fare from TfL I can't confirm what the arrangements are, but I should hope that lodging an appeal within the reduced penalty period should stop the clock on that reduced penalty period. That's the way it works on parking tickets. If your appeal is not upheld and you still have to pay the fine you should have time to settle that...

[Chris M]

I am indeed talking about a penalty fare notice. I've had Oyster maximum fares automatically refunded due to "operational issues at Tower Gateway" before, and will be mentioning this in my letter.

[njr001]

When I exited Tower Gateway at about 1400hrs yesterday all four oyster readers displayed a message 'not operational' or something similar and would not respond to a touch out. There were a group of people working on a control panel nearby which I assumed was connected to the readers who were unable to help, i then walked back to the readers and they were now working normally. On entering Tower Hill all barriers were open but with a notice to 'touch in'. Clearly there was a system failure in the area yesterday.

[Deleted]

These frequent screw ups with Oyster is ridiculous now, its been around long enough for all these faults to be ironed out. Things like journey history not showing every single journey is ridiculous for a capital city like London.

[Deleted]

Hello Mr Chris

You know we live in Beckton as well and go this way sometimes, and I wrote here about having exact the same thing happen when coming through the Tower Gateway station from the District train to the DLR train, I see you wrote there as well

districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=16347&page=1

You are right how do you get out of the District line station without using the ticket but when I went in at the DLR it somehow said I was going out, and then when got home to Beckton it said I was going in and then fined me because I didnt go out from that.

Seems to me that the way it works at the Tower Gateway station when you walk between the stations just does not work.

[Deleted]

Chris, contact the Oyster helpline they should have a record of your touch out/in and explain you've been penalty fared you need this confirmation in writing.

While not massively common it certainly is possible to enter/ exit a busy gateline without the Oyster being recorded correctly But in this example the touch at Tower Gateway would then have registered incorrectly and you'd have been overcharged at your destination.

[dmncf]

Feb 14, 2012 20:23:15 GMT Chris M said:

The PSA showed me the reader and the only thing on display was Hounslow East and the time I tapped in there. Is that normal when making an OSI?

Surely your Oyster card did show that you had touched out at Tower Hill, and the problem is that it did not show you touching in at Tower Gateway?

In my opinion a passenger whose Oyster card was checked between Shadwell and Limehouse on the DLR, and who had touched in at Hounslow East and never touched out, would have a valid ticket, because they could have changed from Tube to DLR at Bank without touching in or out, and then changed DLR trains at Shadwell.

[Chris M]

Feb 15, 2012 9:12:04 GMT dmncf said:

Feb 14, 2012 20:23:15 GMT Chris M said:

The PSA showed me the reader and the only thing on display was Hounslow East and the time I tapped in there. Is that normal when making an OSI?

Surely your Oyster card did show that you had touched out at Tower Hill, and the problem is that it did not show you touching in at Tower Gateway?

It should, but that's not what was on the reader. The DLR's ticket machines don't show a journey history (something that has been complained about many times) so I haven't been able to check myself.

Feb 15, 2012 9:12:04 GMT dmncf said:

In my opinion a passenger whose Oyster card was checked between Shadwell and Limehouse on the DLR, and who had touched in at Hounslow East and never touched out, would have a valid ticket, because they could have changed from Tube to DLR at Bank without touching in or out, and then changed DLR trains at Shadwell.

True, although it was clear that I didn't board at Shadwell as I said hello to the PSA as I walked past him at Tower Gateway.

Feb 15, 2012 9:11:22 GMT @centralsimon said:

Chris, contact the Oyster helpline they should have a record of your touch out/in and explain you've been penalty fared you need this confirmation in writing.

While not massively common it certainly is possible to enter/ exit a busy gateline without the Oyster being recorded correctly But in this example the touch at Tower Gateway would then have registered incorrectly and you'd have been overcharged at your destination.

Ugh, I'd rather not spend money on the Oyster Helpline just for them to post me something that I'll not get for several days. Assuming I can get through of course.

The gateline wasn't especially busy - I had time to actually look at the value remaining on my card (rather fortunately as it turned out). It wasn't a constant stream of people where the gates don't get to close between one person and the next. Also, it clearly said "Exit" at both Tower Hill and Gallions Reach so I must have touched in at Tower Gateway.

[Deleted]

An interesting document available under FOI here - the (or a) staff guide to ticketing - rather more informative on some things than what I've seen before. Page 96 covers OSIs - my interpretation is that an OSI is not recorded on an Oystercard, the 'touch back in' undoing (removing) the 'touch out' end of journey record.

So my view is that what was on the reader was correct, was to be expected in the circumstances, and indication of a valid touch in, i.e. the penalty fare notice was issued although a validated Oyster was held and presented.

[Chris M]

Thank you, that's very useful.

[trc666]

Chris, the Oyster reader (or Handy 440) should show on the most recent history

16FEB12
TOWR G (or similar) XX:XX (
PYGUNJ
£4.60

Pressing NEXT will show the card balance, pressing NEXT again will bring up the recent history.

HIST1 16FEB12
HSLW E XX:XX
TOWR H XX:XX
£3.60

HIST2
Whatever the previous journey was.

Does seem a bit strange that the touch out at Tower Hill did not appear on the reader, unless perhaps the PSA was not using the reader properly and failed to look at the first journey.

[Chris M]

The only thing on the screen was the time and the abbreviation of Hounslow East.

I did go to Canning Town and got a journey history printout which did show, as expected

18.25 Hounslow East – Tower Hill £0.00
19:00 Hounslow East – Gallions Reach DLR £2.25

18:25 was the touch-out time at Tower Hill, 19:00 the touch out time at Gallions Reach. The £2.25 fare was a cap (I'd previously been on two buses, a tram and the Picc from Heathrow 123 to Hounslow Central).

I posted the appeal letter this morning, so we'll see what happens.

[causton]

Did you provide a copy of that receipt? If so I can't see how they will deny you were touched in, and if not I assume they have your Oyster card number so will see for themselves (if it's reached the central systems yet, which it should have by now?)

Good luck - I'm hoping you don't need it though!

[v52gc]

I've been following this story with interest. If they refuse and you really want to take it further get them to check CCTV recordings. I think it's a legal right to request CCTV recordings of yourself, it's a condition of being allowed to record CCTV in the first place a TV program once told me.
Let us know what happens Chris. I don't like it when things unfair like is happens...

[Chris M]

yes, I did send a copy of the receipt and noted my Oyster card number, which is not the same as the 'Oys no.' the PSA wrote on the penalty fare form.
I'll keep this thread updated.

[Chris M]

I have now received a letter back from the appeals people.
The letter is three paragraphs long. The first, a long paragraph, is about whose penalty fares they deal with appeals for, and that all appeals are assessed against a DfT approved code of practice.

The second paragraph states that it is my responsibility to hold a valid ticket, etc.

The third paragraph says in full, "However, having considered the reasons for appeal, I not that genuine problems were experienced and/or misunderstanding on the day in question. Accordingly I am pleased to uphold this appeal and cancel the outstanding balance."

[Deleted]

Hmmm...

My interpretation (of what ChrisM has posted of what the appeals people said) is that they are saying is that he should have had a valid ticket (validated Oyster), but didn't, hence penalty fare ... but given the circumstances, we'll set this to 0 (as they are cancelling the outstanding balance, not the penalty fare as such).

Whereas my take on the original situation is that he did have (and produced) a correctly validated Oyster card (or had at least done the correct things so it should have been), so the penalty fare notice was issued erroneously, and should have been withdrawn

So my inclination (if I was in that position) would be to contact
1) the appeals people over what I've written above, and asking for clarification of what they mean by "genuine problems were experienced and/or misunderstanding".
2) the DLR asking (a) why their PSA believed your Oyster was not validated (and so issued a PFN) and (b) what you should have done for your journey.
3) TfL (Oyster) has what you should have for your journey, Oysterwise, and would been displayed at the various stages of the journey.

A couple of other questions that spring to mind from this are:

• Do hand held readers keep a record of what they have read?
  
• Does a touch in validation expire (as being valid), and if so when?
  
• If I go to touch in and make a journey, will that correctly validate my Oyster for my whole journey (what ever that might be) under all circumstances? - and if not, when doesn't it, and how can I tell?
  

[Chris M]

Regarding point 3, I have already asked those questions. See www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/hand_held_oyster_readers#incoming-258897
Point 6 in that request is the situation I was in (read the clarification further down), and that is indeed what was displayed on the reader.

According to every method I have available to me, I did what I should have done at each point on my journey (i.e. touch in at Hounslow East, touch out at Tower Hill, touch in at Tower Gateway; and then subsequently touch out at Gallions Reach), and that each action was correctly recorded. I did not exceed the maximum journey time from Hounslow East to Gallions Reach (7 zones starting at 7pm on a weekday allows 2 hours 10 minutes for the journey, my journey took 1 hour 57 minutes).

Below is a screenshot of my oyster history for the journey in question:


Regarding your point 2, I'm thinking about this but I haven't yet worked out an appropriate and polite way of wording it.

[adehare2012]

ChrisM, keep challenging this as far up the chain at TFL/LU as you can.

Passengers need to start taking a stand against these people who issue Penalty Fare Notices rather than try and find out the facts first, ie, were the Oyster Readers/validators actually working at the station when the oyster card was touched in. Some of the reasons for instance at Seven Sisters (especially coming down from the National Rail platforms, take an age to register ANY oyster card being touched on them so I can see why passengers might think they have touched in, it would be a bleep from another reader or even the gateline itself.

Hopefully they will clarify what your asking them for, so you can see what they've cancelled or not as the case may be