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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 12:53:15 GMT
Whilst using the core section of the line today it became clear that things like narrow platforms and stairs at the stations mean that more than five cars would be impossible. In addition Wapping is next to the Thames tunnel, you can see Rotherhithe from Canada Water etc etc Well maybe we need to look at segregating LO tracks from the rest of NR and freight so a higher frequency can be acheived Its all cost, which in this case I doubt is worth it at the moment in time.
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Post by mikebuzz on Apr 14, 2014 13:43:19 GMT
Its worth remembering that London's population has been previously higher than it supposedly it now, but whether transport usage has been is unclear. Certainly the tube is carrying more people than at any time in its history, but that this is spread slightly more evenly across its hours of opperation (the morning peak is far less concentrated than 50 years ago), and with fewer, slower, and shorter trains on some lines. Perhaps you might be able to comment on the bus side snoggle? I know Peter Hendy menetioned recently that during the last tube strike they managed to eclipse for the first time the total number of buses running since 1958 (presumably before the then bus strike). Does this translate to ridership though? As a comparison does it include/exclude country routes and Green Line, and, further, what about trolleybuses? Even comparing red buses like for like isn't straightforward because the running area has shrunk. It makes an interesting point though - if London has had a larger population previously and managed its transport system with far less infrastrucure than now, how can it not be expected to do so in the future? I posit that this is because more people are having to use public transport, and more frequently, implying that fewer people live in places appropriate to where their lives are centered. The question then becomes why this is so. And the answer to that must surely be because of decreased densification taking place after the war, and the subsequent pricing out and social cleansing of the less affluent and more labourious workers from inner London. This must surely imply that, at some level, local political policy is to blame for exascerbating capacity problems. And if thats the case, perhaps by changing the social and wealth based demographic breakdown of London it can also be reversed or mitigated? The population of Greater London went from roughly 8.6 mil in 1939 down to 6.7 mil in 1988 and now back up to about 8.3 mil in 2012, so not far short of the 1939 peak which it will soon overtake (if it hasn't already!). But this is only the area known as Greater London. The London conurbation is something different. It's population was 9,787,426 in 2011, which is probably the highest its ever been. The general built up area including some detached parts is variously considered to be between 11 and 14 million depending on which stat you use. But the best metric, and the one that will give you an idea of just how many people there are to commute into London is the one defined as THE LONDON REGION. 13.2 mil in 1931 and 14.8 mil in 1951 (so probably about 14.5 mil in 1939) it was over 17 mil in 1991 and over 20 mil 2011. It's set to rise and rise and beyond it are an inner ring and out ring of partial commute giving the London commuter area a combined population of over 32 mil. No wonder a commuter rail system to rival Tokyo-Osaka is so heavily used. Personally I favour diffusing the central area a bit and adjusting and improving the rail system accordingly, but its gonna cost money!
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 14, 2014 18:18:06 GMT
Its worth remembering that London's population has been previously higher than it supposedly it now, but whether transport usage has been is unclear. Certainly the tube is carrying more people than at any time in its history, but that this is spread slightly more evenly across its hours of opperation (the morning peak is far less concentrated than 50 years ago), and with fewer, slower, and shorter trains on some lines. Perhaps you might be able to comment on the bus side snoggle? I know Peter Hendy menetioned recently that during the last tube strike they managed to eclipse for the first time the total number of buses running since 1958 (presumably before the then bus strike). Does this translate to ridership though? As a comparison does it include/exclude country routes and Green Line, and, further, what about trolleybuses? Even comparing red buses like for like isn't straightforward because the running area has shrunk. It makes an interesting point though - if London has had a larger population previously and managed its transport system with far less infrastrucure than now, how can it not be expected to do so in the future? I posit that this is because more people are having to use public transport, and more frequently, implying that fewer people live in places appropriate to where their lives are centered. The question then becomes why this is so. And the answer to that must surely be because of decreased densification taking place after the war, and the subsequent pricing out and social cleansing of the less affluent and more labourious workers from inner London. This must surely imply that, at some level, local political policy is to blame for exascerbating capacity problems. And if thats the case, perhaps by changing the social and wealth based demographic breakdown of London it can also be reversed or mitigated? The population of Greater London went from roughly 8.6 mil in 1939 down to 6.7 mil in 1988 and now back up to about 8.3 mil in 2012, so not far short of the 1939 peak which it will soon overtake (if it hasn't already!). But this is only the area known as Greater London. The London conurbation is something different. It's population was 9,787,426 in 2011, which is probably the highest its ever been. The general built up area including some detached parts is variously considered to be between 11 and 14 million depending on which stat you use. But the best metric, and the one that will give you an idea of just how many people there are to commute into London is the one defined as THE LONDON REGION. 13.2 mil in 1931 and 14.8 mil in 1951 (so probably about 14.5 mil in 1939) it was over 17 mil in 1991 and over 20 mil 2011. It's set to rise and rise and beyond it are an inner ring and out ring of partial commute giving the London commuter area a combined population of over 32 mil. No wonder a commuter rail system to rival Tokyo-Osaka is so heavily used. Personally I favour diffusing the central area a bit and adjusting and improving the rail system accordingly, but its gonna cost money! I knew this had to be the case and is exactly what I was on about. I lived in Woodford from 1965 to 1987 and in that limited time, the number of people in the area grew exponentially. I didn't need statistics to tell me what I could see with my own eyes. My old man still lives there and on my regular visits it's obvious it's even worse now than it ever was. Most houses in the area have been enlarged to allow extended families to live under one roof and very few traditional front gardens remain, most having been converted to car ramps for 2 to 3 cars. I really cannot see how the authorities can hope to address this increase in population and it's transport demands ad infinitum. Wouldn't it be better to devise a way of getting people out of the capital instead of cramming even more in? Just seems crazy to me. It's becoming purgatory on the trains down there now. How will an extra couple of trains per hour or a couple of extra carriages improve this for any longer than a few months, maybe a year tops? Take into account the inevitable increase in punters and this "catch up" approach is unsustainable. We need to realise that a brand new line, Crossrail, will be full the minute it starts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 11:48:45 GMT
What you also need to consider, is that in the past far more people lived within walking distance of their place of work. This was mainly true for manufacturing and the docks. But these activities have been largely automated and moved out to large single storey structures out in the suburbs or the New Towns and now China.
People travel further for work these days putting even more strain on transport systems.
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Post by mikebuzz on Apr 20, 2014 22:25:51 GMT
I remember reading a lot of people lived within a few miles of London in the 19th century before the omnibuses became popular as they would walk to and from work. 45 minutes was quite common.
Today people travel by car from Nottingham, train from York, and plane from Copenhagen, but I would think the majority of commutes are within an an hour's drive or similar time by train or on foot. London's lucky in having a lot of long-distance 'outer suburban' rail services.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 20:25:26 GMT
Just to revisit some of the earlier speculation about Canada Water, I can confirm that the works will enable 9 doors to open on both the up and down platforms. The last set of doors in the 5th carriage will be disabled via SDO. All other ELL stations will accommodate all 10 sets of doors except for Rotherhithe and Whitechapel (8 only both directions, in the case of Whitechapel this will be until Crossrail works are complete) and Wapping will accommodate 9 on the up and 8 on the down. This is reasonable enough I think and I would have thought that dwell time at Canada Water will be similar to now given how passengers migrate to the doors closest to the escalator as it is. I would imagine that people filing through one set of doors in the 5th car won't extend this time unduly, especially once regular commuters have become accustomed to the situation. It's shame that Whitechapel is unlikely to see 10 doors opening for three years or so. I think its here that there might be a possible increase in dwell time. This issue is far less significant at Rotherhithe.
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Post by dmncf on Jun 6, 2014 20:40:52 GMT
On Wednesday I noticed that several of the sidings at Willesden Junction depot are being reconstructed, presumably to accommodate 5 car trains. For a few years there have been two old wagons on the sidings nearest London Overground's Euston-Watford 'DC Line', and on Wednesday these were still in situ, but marooned on isolated bits of rail with the surrounds rails and sleepers dug up and gone. One of these wagons can be glimpsed in the first photo. IMAG0810 by dmncf, on Flickr and IMAG0812 by dmncf, on Flickr
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Post by dazz285 on Jun 6, 2014 21:58:49 GMT
The picture on the left, once the work has been completed, will be for stabling the 172's On Wednesday I noticed that several of the sidings at Willesden Junction depot are being reconstructed, presumably to accommodate 5 car trains. For a few years there have been two old wagons on the sidings nearest London Overground's Euston-Watford 'DC Line', and on Wednesday these were still in situ, but marooned on isolated bits of rail with the surrounds rails and sleepers dug up and gone. One of these wagons can be glimpsed in the first photo. IMAG0810 by dmncf, on Flickr and IMAG0812 by dmncf, on Flickr
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 6, 2014 22:07:51 GMT
But Rotherhithe and Wapping both have platforms longer than those at Canada Water - how comes they will both be more limited?!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 0:28:50 GMT
But Rotherhithe and Wapping both have platforms longer than those at Canada Water - how comes they will both be more limited?! Quite simply because Canada Water not only carries many, many more passengers than the other two you mentioned, but the station box was big enough to allow hacking out at both ends to enable 9 doors. Wapping on the up is the only other one of that group which will take 9 doors.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 10:11:45 GMT
I feel it's inevitable that we will be looking at 6 cars in a few years' time - at what point do we accept that Rotherhithe has to be sacrificed to allow Canada Water to be extended on the flat, and the gradient upwards starts from the Thames Tunnel portal?
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Post by bassmike on Jun 7, 2014 12:32:35 GMT
No -it starts from the centre of the tunnel.
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Post by longhedge on Jun 8, 2014 7:19:53 GMT
But Rotherhithe and Wapping both have platforms longer than those at Canada Water - how comes they will both be more limited?! Quite simply because Canada Water not only carries many, many more passengers than the other two you mentioned, but the station box was big enough to allow hacking out at both ends to enable 9 doors. Wapping on the up is the only other one of that group which will take 9 doors. I am perplexed. I have received from TFL the large print document `Improving Capacity on Trains`. DATED April 2014, so I would have felt would be up-to-date. It states Page 3 QUOTE AT Whitechapel, Wapping, Rotherhithe and Canada Water.........when the longer trains are introduced the last set of doors will not open at these stations.UNQUOTE So what is really happening at Rotherhithe? I have used the station and the platforms are straight and look to be OK for 9 doors without any work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2014 11:44:30 GMT
Quite simply because Canada Water not only carries many, many more passengers than the other two you mentioned, but the station box was big enough to allow hacking out at both ends to enable 9 doors. Wapping on the up is the only other one of that group which will take 9 doors. I am perplexed. I have received from TFL the large print document `Improving Capacity on Trains`. DATED April 2014, so I would have felt would be up-to-date. It states Page 3 QUOTE AT Whitechapel, Wapping, Rotherhithe and Canada Water.........when the longer trains are introduced the last set of doors will not open at these stations.UNQUOTE So what is really happening at Rotherhithe? I have used the station and the platforms are straight and look to be OK for 9 doors without any work. No works are being undertaken at Rotherhithe. On the up the stop mark is already a long way forward and drivers have little margin for error even now because the front set of doors sit only just in front of the barrier. Our last briefing stated exactly what I posted earlier. Rotherhithe has relatively low passenger flow and i dont think one carriage being off will be at all significant there. There's been some more involved discussion over on London Reconnections regarding this under the Thames Tunnel photo thread so I won't duplicate that here. Minor works have taken place at Wapping to allow trains to push forward to enable 9 doors without costly platform extension. This is not possible on the down. Works at Canada Water are still ongoing but is clear that space has been created at both ends of both platforms to enable 9 doors.
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Post by longhedge on Jun 8, 2014 14:37:30 GMT
latecomerThanks for quick response. I just find it annoying when official TFL literature does not get things correct!!
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Post by crusty54 on Jun 8, 2014 16:09:42 GMT
Extensions to the decorative cladding at the north end of both platforms at Wapping are to be installed along with moves of the end of platform gates.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2014 17:21:53 GMT
Extensions to the decorative cladding at the north end of both platforms at Wapping are to be installed along with moves of the end of platform gates. This has already happened on the up platform. There are various pieces of infrastructure at the north end of the down platform so what is your source on the down down works? Certainly up to a few days ago there was nothing to suggest any change to the briefing I received that the down would remain 8 doors only. Unless work has happened since (or is going to happen that you are privy to?). I know plans can and do change but I'm curious to learn more about this.
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Post by crusty54 on Jun 8, 2014 19:35:34 GMT
Extensions to the decorative cladding at the north end of both platforms at Wapping are to be installed along with moves of the end of platform gates. This has already happened on the up platform. There are various pieces of infrastructure at the north end of the down platform so what is your source on the down down works? Certainly up to a few days ago there was nothing to suggest any change to the briefing I received that the down would remain 8 doors only. Unless work has happened since (or is going to happen that you are privy to?). I know plans can and do change but I'm curious to learn more about this. My company tendered for the work. We may be moving the stop marks so I have seen all the locations except Canada Water.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 6:56:52 GMT
OT but potentially related: 378201 was taken to Derby last week presumably to act as guinea pig for the insertion of the extra car
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 11:47:15 GMT
This has already happened on the up platform. There are various pieces of infrastructure at the north end of the down platform so what is your source on the down down works? Certainly up to a few days ago there was nothing to suggest any change to the briefing I received that the down would remain 8 doors only. Unless work has happened since (or is going to happen that you are privy to?). I know plans can and do change but I'm curious to learn more about this. My company tendered for the work. We may be moving the stop marks so I have seen all the locations except Canada Water. OK Crusty54, thanks for the info. I still can't see how the down at Wapping will be accommodate 9 doors due to the infrastructure at the north end and that is consistent with our own briefing. If the stop mark is moved it might bring the train forward very slightly but it already extremely close to the end of the platform. We'll wait and see!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 9, 2014 15:55:30 GMT
Wapping NB was 94.3m, SB 94.5m, Rotherhithe NB 88m, SB 88.5m, Canada Water between tunnel mouths NB was 90.1m and SB 90.6m, though the headwalls were closer in and the platforms shorter still.
As far as I can make out, Wapping is the roomiest by far! Whats changed??
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 17:38:44 GMT
Excuse my slight exasperation Ben but I see this station maybe 800 times a year and as mentioned before there is some infrastructure at the northern end of the southbound platform. I am open to what Crusty54 said if their company was tendered to do work on the down platform but it would need to be far more extensive than what Crusty54 posted. I can't find a suitable image but if you view the following cab ride video:
Roll it forward to 13.30 and you will see the section of platform between there and 13.33 (this is in the down direction. Note the infrastructure and where the end of platform barrier is. It is opposite the up platform barrier which clearly has substantially more room. In fact the up platform has had the additional cladding put on covering the area of bare wall that you can see if you freeze-frame at 13.33. The up platform is virtually ready for 9 doors except for moving of the stop mark.
Roll the video on to 13.46 and you will see that the southern end platform barrier is pretty close to the wall. We stop our trains just short of this so the drivers door is literally just short of the barrier. It is one of the stations where we have to be on the money with our stopping point. It may be possible to move forward a touch if the barrier area is removed but I am sceptical as to whether it will achieve the desired 9 doors. Viewing the video again I doubt they'll remove the barrier at the southern end as if someone falls down the stairs they could easily fall right off the platform and under a train. Note how close the steps are to the platform and how narrow the platform is. I stand corrected if they consider it worth demolishing the infrastructure at the north end and re-house whatever is contained therein. If things change I will post up, but in the meantime that's all I have to say on Wapping.
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Post by dpb on Aug 17, 2014 22:27:53 GMT
What's going to happen at platform 2 at Highbury & Islington. I was there today and noticed a new stopping board, presumably for the 5 car 378 which is tantalisingly close to the overhead wires. Presumably they're going to have to extend the 3rd rail to reach this stopping point, but surely they can now stretch to extending it far enough to finally reach the OHLE?
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North End
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Post by North End on Aug 17, 2014 22:49:00 GMT
What's going to happen at platform 2 at Highbury & Islington. I was there today and noticed a new stopping board, presumably for the 5 car 378 which is tantalisingly close to the overhead wires. Presumably they're going to have to extend the 3rd rail to reach this stopping point, but surely they can now stretch to extending it far enough to finally reach the OHLE? The systems have to be deliberately kept separate as far as possible because each uses a different earthing arrangement. Normally where there are interfaces between the two, a complex (and expensive) arrangement of twin isolation transformers is provided - this can be found at Ashford (x2), Dollands Moor, Ebbsfleet and Hook Green Road on the CTRL, also at Drayton Park and also the remaining switchover locations on the North London Line. I have seen plans showing a similar arrangement planned for the transfer track at Highbury, with an isolation transformer site at Court Gardens, however this doesn't seem to have materialised. Does anyone know any more?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 22, 2014 2:13:52 GMT
Latecomer - thank you for the reply and apologies for any annoyance caused. Didn't notice your previous mention of the infrastructure at one end of the platform. Does that date from the rebuilding for overground services? Further, sorry for the late reply. I've only just read this at all. Please don't take my post as some kind of challenge. Rather, I'm merely stating how things were at one point, now some time in the past. :-)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 12:53:40 GMT
Latecomer - thank you for the reply and apologies for any annoyance caused. Didn't notice your previous mention of the infrastructure at one end of the platform. Does that date from the rebuilding for overground services? Further, sorry for the late reply. I've only just read this at all. Please don't take my post as some kind of challenge. Rather, I'm merely stating how things were at one point, now some time in the past. :-) Sorry Ben I have only just seen your own reply. My own apologies I must have had a bad day to have been so grumpy! I don't know when the infrastructure at the north end of the down platform appeared, but I think it was probably when the station reopened under LO. Part of it is an electrical switch room. Signs have recently gone up in the vicinity of this infrastructure instructing any passengers standing at the last sets of doors on 5 car services to move down the train to alight.
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