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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 13, 2014 9:21:11 GMT
Not long ago before the low floor buses my mother had to fold the buggy, carry me and any bags/shopping onto the bus up two steps as well as pay the driver. This whole terrifying situation can be simplified. -Never leave anything unattended on platforms that could be blown onto the tracks; be it suitcases, bags or especially a buggy with a child in it! -Don't start a journey you can't finish -Don't go on the tracks to retrieve personal items. I agree wholly with Aslefshrugged in the enforcement of the conditions of carriage, they mostly make sense. However Diana is also right in that the pushchair designs are too complicated requiring two levers to be pulled to fold it up and if the journey can be completed without the need to fold it why should it! As has been said it protects the child (if not left unattended!) The other day I witnessed an argument on the bus; there was already one pushchair in the wheelchair space, somebody boards from the rear with another larger pushchair then goes to tap their Oyster card at the front of the bus. Another pushchair is about to get on at the front (which was queuing with everybody else) and the driver tells the person with the large pushchair to leave as they should have boarded the front and that the pushchair boarding at the front was before them. Large pushchair starts shouting that their pushchair is too big to get down the aisle so they have to get on the back! I couldn't help thinking that maybe they should have bought a pushchair more suitable to their needs then. In the end the pushchair getting on at the front was folded. Well done to the train operator for stopping the train! Good thing it wasn't a driverless train! I wouldn't mind better there's a pile of festering slime AKA ambulance chaser, thinking: "She could sue them. If there were barriers like they have on the Jubilee Line, this wouldn't have happened. Ergo it's LULs fault-Pay up!! And I'm not joking
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Post by peterc on Aug 13, 2014 9:23:15 GMT
We know nothing about the origins of the people concerned. We all know how strong the piston effect is as trains go through the system but did the man? The buggy was placed with the handles against the wall parallel to the tracks. What non specialist would expect the buggy to suddenly rotate through 90 degrees before starting to roll? As somebody who has used the tube as a customer fairly regularly for the best part of half a century I would have considered that the risk would be for it to simply fall on its side.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 13, 2014 10:02:25 GMT
This whole terrifying situation can be simplified. -Don't start a journey you can't finish How are you to know whether the route is possible? Are you supposed to reconnoitre the route first? I doubt they'll use Goodge Street again in a hurry. (And of course what is possible with children changes all the time as they become more mobile and less portable) The "blue blobs" on the tube map are an unreliable indicator of accessibility - many people can manage one or two steps but not a long flight: conversely some lifts are only made available to wheelchair users. t Having got to the bottom of the lift and discovered there was a flight of steps what are you to do? - turn round and go back into the lift? - take junior out of the buggy and carry them down one at a time (the problem of the fox, the geese and the corn comes to mind) - wait for staff assistance (good luck with that one!) In the present case it would seem there were two adults and two buggies, but for some reason one adult carried the buggies one at a time (I can think of many possible reasons why Mum couldn't carry something heavy but could push a buggy). What else were they to do?
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Post by Tomcakes on Aug 13, 2014 10:50:43 GMT
Remember also that low floor buses are still to come to many services outwith London. There are also many problems with buggy users failing to relinquish the space for wheelchair users (for whom it is provided). LUL when asked about this matter say they cannot stop a passenger from bringing an item, such as a buggy they cannot handle, onto their premises! Where did LUL say they can't refuse someone with an item that they can't handle, a quote or a link would be nice as the Conditions of Carriage are very clear on the subject..... 13.1.4 Staff can refuse permission for you to take any item onto our services. In a response to a complaint about a very busy and far-too-small station, being made even busier by people bringing buggies where they are clearly unable to carry them - thus creating a bottleneck at the top of a busy staircase... We cannot discriminate against our customers from using the services available at the station, whether they have large bags or no large bags, and buggies.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 11:21:15 GMT
I'd only seen the version linked on the original post which doesn't show that angle until after the buggy is on the track. It actually moves before the woman is seen on the platform so if it was moved it was following the buggy and someone was on the phone to Cobourg Street (or Highgate, not sure if they've moved). Perhaps the approaching train stopped because they discharged traction current, something you couldn't see in the Mirror's vesrion. Then again as Norbitonflyer suggests the cameras could move automatically to stop burn-out or another possibility is it could have shifted slightly by the wind, I've seen it happen on the Central Line while I've been in platforms. Actually I've another explanation having watched it again, it's been cropped to focus on the "action" and it even moves while swapping between two different CCTV cameras, I suspect some journo has been busy with the video editing suite. Tut - Wood Lane can access the CCTV on the Central Line but only ever do so if they are alerted to something, thus I'll call them up to say there's a drunk staggering around the platform, there will be a short pause while they select the right camera followed by - "Wow, they really are drunk, aren't they.........I'll inform station staff".
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Post by brigham on Aug 13, 2014 12:29:06 GMT
"Chief Inspector Mark Lawrie says he has "real concern for all involved."..."
Sorry, old son. This one resolved itself without Police intervention. Everyone's fine, incident's over.
Another one will be along in a minute.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 13, 2014 12:33:52 GMT
The "blue blobs" on the tube map are an unreliable indicator of accessibility - many people can manage one or two steps but not a long flight: conversely some lifts are only made available to wheelchair users. Indeed, they give a completely unrealistic indication of accessibility and as such are worse than useless. I was chatting to someone the other day who cannot manage long flights of stairs but is fine with 3 or 4, they also find it difficult to manage steep or long gradients - they find walking on the flat for a distance then two or three steps followed by another flat walk much easier. They were also explicitly unimpressed by the implication that step-free interchange is possible at London Bridge (it is, but only by existing the station, walking a long, unsignposted, distance at street level before re-entering the other ticket hall). People's accessibility needs are complex and cannot be displayed meaningfully by the use of two icons.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 13, 2014 13:19:58 GMT
Indeed, [the blue blobs] give a completely unrealistic indication of accessibility and as such are worse than useless. ......People's accessibility needs are complex and cannot be displayed meaningfully by the use of two icons. The blue blobs are meaningless to all but the tiny minority (but most visible) of disabled people who use wheelchairs. For example, I have an elderly relative who finds modern "accessible" buses almost impossible to use because there are few, if any, seats in the low floor area. Not all disabled people bring their own seats with them! She can only manage escalators with difficulty (she needs someone to hold on to). One or two steps are not a problem. A wheelchair is an apparatus consisting of a seat on wheels, for the use of a person not able to walk very far (or at all), and fitted with handlebars to allow another person to push it. A baby buggy, on the other hand, is an apparatus consisting of..........
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 20:17:13 GMT
In a response to a complaint about a very busy and far-too-small station, being made even busier by people bringing buggies where they are clearly unable to carry them - thus creating a bottleneck at the top of a busy staircase... We cannot discriminate against our customers from using the services available at the station, whether they have large bags or no large bags, and buggies.Reason no. 55 why I am so glad that I quit stations and went onto the train side 11 years ago. Nothing quite like some suit from TfL who probably sits in an office 9-5 M-F, has never been near a station other than to catch the train to or from work and has never heard of the Conditions of Carriage let alone read them coming out with a statement that totally contradicts the rules that staff are meant to enforce. I'm amazed station staff aren't top of the list of people throwing themselves under trains with the extent of mismanagement they suffer.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 13, 2014 20:45:29 GMT
In a response to a complaint about a very busy and far-too-small station, being made even busier by people bringing buggies where they are clearly unable to carry them - thus creating a bottleneck at the top of a busy staircase... We cannot discriminate against our customers from using the services available at the station, whether they have large bags or no large bags, and buggies.Reason no. 55 why I am so glad that I quit stations and went onto the train side 11 years ago. Nothing quite like some suit from TfL who probably sits in an office 9-5 M-F, has never been near a station other than to catch the train to or from work and has never heard of the Conditions of Carriage let alone read them coming out with a statement that totally contradicts the rules that staff are meant to enforce. I'm amazed station staff aren't top of the list of people throwing themselves under trains with the extent of mismanagement they suffer. More likely has a bike or a chauffeur
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 3:43:55 GMT
How are you to know whether the route is possible? Are you supposed to reconnoitre the route first? I doubt they'll use Goodge Street again in a hurry. (And of course what is possible with children changes all the time as they become more mobile and less portable) The "blue blobs" on the tube map are an unreliable indicator of accessibility - many people can manage one or two steps but not a long flight: conversely some lifts are only made available to wheelchair users. t Having got to the bottom of the lift and discovered there was a flight of steps what are you to do? - turn round and go back into the lift? - take junior out of the buggy and carry them down one at a time (the problem of the fox, the geese and the corn comes to mind) - wait for staff assistance (good luck with that one!) In the present case it would seem there were two adults and two buggies, but for some reason one adult carried the buggies one at a time (I can think of many possible reasons why Mum couldn't carry something heavy but could push a buggy). What else were they to do? Goodge Street doesn't have a "blue blob" precisely because like many stations with lifts that were opened in the 1900s (e.g. Holland Park, Lambeth North, Covent Garden) there are usually stairs down to the platform. Back then "step free access" wasn't a consideration and adapting the stations to the needs of the 21st century are far beyond TfL's current budget. As for the rest we're back to the conditions of carriage, its up to passengers to ensure that the route they take is suitable and that they are able to carry whatever they bring with them. If they are unsure they should ask a member of staff before they start their journey - LUL keep promising that the reorganisation following the closure of ticket offices will mean more staff available to help with passengers. Or maybe plan ahead, go on the internet and check these things, not just at Tube stations but also step free access to shops, theatres and cinemas, like my ex-wife does when she is going anywhere in her wheelchair. Its called personal responsibility and it doesn't seem particularly fashionable these days
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 14, 2014 17:24:52 GMT
In a similar vein, the RAIB have today released a report into slightly similar accidents available here. Paragraph 70 finishes:
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Post by rsdworker on Aug 14, 2014 19:43:52 GMT
if LU realized they could put small MIP lift between two staircases then this wouldn't happened because installing small lifts between lower lift landing and platform would solve the problems - this would applied to stations where stairs with lift from ticket hall means accident wouldn't occurred
also prams shouldn't left in cross passages where winds could knock prams out of cross passageway - the soulution should be man should placed pram wall at foot of stairs away from cross passageway or just brake it before leaving it a warning signs would placed on wall and public address warning of dangers
but platform edge doors would eliminate problems but costly but a lift would solved for parents - putting a safer solution
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Aug 14, 2014 20:00:16 GMT
Let us not forget it was an accident, and if the next train had been seconds earlier, it could have been a fatality. It was fortuitous that the previous train had just pulled out when it happened, and that gave precious time,
One of the lessons to be learned from this is that people when they panic, do not immediately think of the emergency button, nor is there time to go looking for it (somebody might even be obstructing it). Also, you cannot rely on anyone else to press it as the other guy on the platform just walked away. LU need to have a re-think before something similar happens one day into the future..................
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 20:16:54 GMT
Let us not forget it was an accident, and if the next train had been seconds earlier, it could have been a fatality. It was fortuitous that the previous train had just pulled out when it happened, and that gave precious time, One of the lessons to be learned from this is that people when they panic, do not immediately think of the emergency button, nor is there time to go looking for it (somebody might even be obstructing it). Also, you cannot rely on anyone else to press it as the other guy on the platform just walked away. LU need to have a re-think before something similar happens one day into the future.................. I feel I should stress that it was the previous train pulling out which was the proximate cause of this. As the train pulls away, it creates suction - it pulls the air into the tunnel behind it. This airflow is what pulled the buggy onto the platform and onto the tracks. I suppose the emergency button on the help point could've been used to alert staff, but as has been said before, that wouldn't really have been the best course of action in all probability. However, the help point should have been used to summon staff to retrieve the bag from the tracks. As much as many people might similarly grab their stuff 'while they're there', without really thinking about it, I think the case has been made for why that really wasn't the smartest move. Edit: Wikipedia actually gives a fairly good explanation: "In open air, when a vehicle travels along, air pushed aside can move in any direction except into the ground. Inside a tunnel, air is confined by the tunnel walls to move along the tunnel. Behind the moving vehicle, as air has been pushed away, suction is created, and air is pulled to flow into the tunnel. This movement of air by the train is analogous to the operation of a mechanical piston as inside a reciprocating compressor gas pump, hence the name 'piston effect', as well as to the pressure fluctuations inside drainage pipes as waste water pushes air in front of it. In addition, because of fluid viscosity, the surface of the vehicle also drags the air to flow with vehicle, a force experienced as skin drag by the vehicle." My physics is not as good as I wish it was, but as far as my intuitions and GCSE physics can tell, you can intuitively understand it with a syringe. When you pull the top of a syringe, it sucks liquid up. Having had a look, I don't think a syringe uses the piston effect, but it's a similar sort of thing that happens. You can model the train as the moving part of a syringe and the air as the liquid in the syringe.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 14, 2014 20:24:52 GMT
It was fortuitous that the previous train had just pulled out when it happened, and that gave precious time, Not completeky fortuitous - it was the piston effect of the departing train which caused the buggy to move (note that it doesn't start to move until the rear of the train passes the cross-passage). They were undoubtedly lucky in several respects: - they realised quickly where junior had gone - they were at the front end of the platform, giving a few seconds more warning of the approach of the next train, and giving the driver more time to react) If the train had come a little sooner Mum might have abandoned whatever was in the bag but, whether by luck or judgement, she gave herself enough time to get clear. I still can't fathom the response of the man in shorts, who showed no reaction at all as this drama was acted out less than five feet in front of him - not even unfolding his arms.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 0:06:10 GMT
Rsdworker - rubbish. The way Goodge Street and other 1900s lift stations were built means that there is no room for a "small MIP lift between two staircases ", you'd need a major rebuild costing millions. If you've got two buggies and only one of two adults can carry a buggy then do not bring them on the Tube.
Castlebar - I believe someone mentioned earlier in the thread that there aren’t any emergency stop plungers on the Northern, the only thing that will stop a train is the TOp hitting the emergency or the control room discharging current.
Tut – the emergency button on Help Points puts you in contact with BTP rather than the station control room but only the line control room at Cobourg St (or Highgate) can discharge current or contact the TOp approaching the platform.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 0:52:58 GMT
...the only thing that will stop a train is the TOp hitting the emergency or the control room discharging current. In the event of traction current being discharged, what would actually happen? I know those trains can coast quite some way without power. Would the emergency brakes come on automatically, or would the T/Op still need to intervene? I can imagine the ATP hitting the brakes in the event of unexpected loss of traction current - although I obviously don't know - but I wonder about the old manually driven lines. Tut – the emergency button on Help Points puts you in contact with BTP rather than the station control room but only the line control room at Cobourg St (or Highgate) can discharge current or contact the TOp approaching the platform. Oh, I didn't know that - thanks for the clarification. I actually only had in mind using it to summon someone to help with subsequently retrieving the bag, not the baby, but it's still good to know what that button actually does. I would probably use the information one over the emergency one if I were asking for help retrieving property from the tracks, but I guess either would get the message to someone on stations in the end.
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Post by brigham on Aug 15, 2014 1:27:22 GMT
Usual pseudo-science from Wikipedia.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 1:50:35 GMT
What do you doubt about it? I mean, really, if you know better, do please correct me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 8:31:37 GMT
Tut - discharging traction current won't stop a train straight away, it will coast in ATO or manual until it eventually comes to a stop or the TOp applies the brakes (if its on an upward gradient then the emergency brake will stop it should it start rolling backwards).
I believe the Northern went fully ATO in June.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 12:05:58 GMT
I believe the Northern went fully ATO in June. It did, I was just additionally curious whether there was any mechanism on the manual lines. Thanks awfully
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 15, 2014 21:47:21 GMT
One of the lessons to be learned from this is that people when they panic, do not immediately think of the emergency button, nor is there time to go looking for it (somebody might even be obstructing it). Also, you cannot rely on anyone else to press it as the other guy on the platform just walked away. LU need to have a re-think before something similar happens one day into the future.................. It does of course help when there is an effective emergency button, however unlike the Central and Victoria Lines the Jubilee and Northern were not* provided with Emergency Stop Plungers when they went ATO. * - The Jubilee line was to be provided (and they were in fact installed), however a case to not provide Emergency Stop Plungers was made prior to the commissioning of TBTC and in consequence the plungers were never commissioned.
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Post by Colin on Aug 16, 2014 23:35:48 GMT
Tut – the emergency button on Help Points puts you in contact with BTP rather than the station control room but only the line control room at Cobourg St (or Highgate) can discharge current or contact the TOp approaching the platform. Unless things have changed since I worked on stations, the emergency button will initially go through to the station control room or station supervisor's phone as appropriate; it will transfer to BTP after 30 seconds if not answered.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 0:43:15 GMT
Unless things have changed since I worked on stations, the emergency button will initially go through to the station control room or station supervisor's phone as appropriate; it will transfer to BTP after 30 seconds if not answered. I left stations in 2003 so things may have changed or my recollection could be at fault.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 9:16:38 GMT
Tut – the emergency button on Help Points puts you in contact with BTP rather than the station control room but only the line control room at Cobourg St (or Highgate) can discharge current or contact the TOp approaching the platform. Unless things have changed since I worked on stations, the emergency button will initially go through to the station control room or station supervisor's phone as appropriate; it will transfer to BTP after 30 seconds if not answered. Things are still like that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 9:36:32 GMT
We now live in a very selfish society where increasing numbers of individuals think the World is theirs and the rest of us are guests in it. Disregarding rule partially on public transportation is at epidemic proportions with the dangers t o everyone increasing on daily basis. The lack of will/ understandably afraid of consequences to enforce rules is causing a downward spiral with series safety implications for all passengers and staff on all public transport networks in the UK
Yesterday whilst I was travelling on the Jubilee Line 2 buggies not folder at the end of the car obstructing the doors while the little darlings occupies a seat each on a crowded train and the parents had left 2 cases obstructing the opposite door- selfishness par excellence!
I travel daily on First Great Western Services ion the rush hour where there are rules about no cycles (except folding) on trains during the peal period s which are openly flouted with up to 4 or 5 bikes sometimes blocking a pair of doors - Where is Health and Safety when there is a real issue? I have raised this issue with both station staff and FGW HQ and have been fobbed off with there is not an issue whist on the platform being told by station staff that it is up to the member of staff on the train as to how many bikes can be carried in total contradiction to the published rules by First. Given that the Classes 165/166 on driver only in most cases are we going to see queues of cyclists outside the drivers cab door at every station? I also nearly got knocked over leaving a train last week by an idiot cycling at speed down a platform!
What will it take to stop and then reverse this decline in safety? I am afraid it will be a tragedy!
The woman involved in last week’s incident is seen as a heroine by some when in reality she is the one who put her child's life in danger no one else! I hope she is charged with willful neglect because that is what her action is; hopeful that might help put this issue in its correct context
What about the recess parents that up/go down the escalators with a buggy with child on board with 2 front wheels on a step and the back ones overhanging, unbelievably stupidity!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 17, 2014 11:40:55 GMT
I've also seen toddlers on their little bikes & scooters riding round on FGW and Tube trains.
As if bombing round a supermarket on them isn't bad enough. Typical parental over-indulgence all the way.
To be fair, the FGW guard on both occasions put a stop to it, though he got a barrage of abuse from the parent/parents both times.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 12:08:17 GMT
To be fair, the FGW guard on both occasions put a stop to it, though he got a barrage of abuse from the parent/parents both times. Well, you say 'parent'...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 17, 2014 12:14:06 GMT
The woman involved in last week’s incident is seen as a heroine by some when in reality she is the one who put her child's life in danger no one else! ! Actually, if you look at the CCTV footage you will see that it was not her who parked the buggy there and omitted to put the brakes on. What about the recess parents that up/go down the escalators with a buggy with child on board with 2 front wheels on a step and the back ones overhanging, unbelievably stupidity! perfectly safe if you apply the brakes and stand below the buggy, holding on to it. Or are you suggesting that all parents should stay at home until their children are old enough to travel independently?
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