Goodge Street Buggy

[rincew1nd]

This caught my eye earlier on BBC News:

clicky

Whilst the mother's actions in rapidly retrieving the pram and child are understandable, I was disconcerted to see that whilst they were next to a help point they went back onto the track to retrieve items from close proximity to the neggy rail with (it would appear from the reflections of headlights) of a train approaching.

[domh245]

In a situation like that, from pressing help button to help arriving on the scene, it could well have been several minutes, especially at goodge street. Whilst the driver would have stopped short of the obstruction, in a situation like this, I think that the parent would have jumped on the track anyway. Hindsight and armchair commentary are all well and good, but parents (and I'm sure parents on here would agree) would revert to their instincts and jumped down on the track to try and save their child. Help buttons are all well and good, but there is little point if all it does is summon a staff member in a minute or so. If anything getting on the track is more likely to get the train stopped, especially if you are far enough away from the entrance.


Having re-read my post, it does seem to be a bit in favour of going onto the track if you drop something. Obviously, that is trespass, and is condemnable, but there are times when jumping onto the track is the best course of action. Person on the track with no help immediately available is ok, dropping your show, not as much.

[Deleted]

I think, like me, if I've understood him correctly, rincew1nd was predominantly concerned that the lady involved remained on the tracks to collect a bag of items, whilst a train was approaching, and did not - as she ought to have done, really - immediately get clear of the tracks after rescuing her child.

I'm obviously not in favour of unauthorised people gaining access to the tracks in general, but I think she behaved correctly, and rather admirably, in rescuing the child. There was little alternative really, it's unlikely there would have been time to get the message to the approaching train and you don't really want a buggy near the neggy for any longer than is absolutely necessary - there's always a fear it could slip or something. After the child was retrieved from the tracks, however, she should have immediately returned to the platform and then - if her bag of items was that important - summoned staff assistance using the help point. I'm not apt to criticise this poor - and seemingly rather brave - woman but I'm afraid her actions after rescuing the child were, well, not textbook.

[superteacher]

Her actions were probably instinctive, and I wouldn't criticise her for doing what she did. She was a bit silly for staying to retrieve the bag though.

I'd struggle to find any parent who wouldn't do what she did in going onto the track.

[theblackferret]

Thank Christ all was OK.

Quite horrendous what could have transpired at any point in this incident.

I would say leaving the buggy facing the tracks & no adult holding on to it is worrying, even placed where it was.

Kids move in those things, you know, for a start.

[phillw48]

Aug 11, 2014 21:10:05 GMT theblackferret said:

Thank Christ all was OK.

Quite horrendous what could have transpired at any point in this incident.

I would say leaving the buggy facing the tracks & no adult holding on to it is worrying, even placed where it was.

Kids move in those things, you know, for a start.

Apparently it was sucked onto the platform by the air movement of the trains, but don't they have brakes?

[Deleted]

Yes I think actually the buggy was facing the stairs, not the tracks at all. It's possible that it was not properly secured (which is an important lesson that can be learned - always secure a buggy if leaving it unattended on LU), but it's equally possible that the brakes simply failed to hold the buggy and we have no way of knowing either way.

I don't particularly want to speculate at whether anyone was at fault, really. It was clearly a freak and very horrible incident and the mother acted bravely and admirably (admittedly right up until the point where she put her groceries (or whatever it was) above her own personal safety, but I think we can let that one slide) and I'm very glad everyone involved seems to be alright - I hope that is indeed confirmed in due course.

Still, as I say, good to bear in mind the need to properly secure (or, ideally, remain with) a buggy on and near the platforms.

[Deleted]

Completely the fault of these two.

Item 13.1.2 of the Conditions of Carriage states that “You may bring with you……folding buggies and folding cycles that you are able to carry yourself (including up/down fixed stairways) and 13.1.3 adds “You must not bring with you anything that…..you are unable to carry yourself (including up/down fixed stairways). This couple had two buggies and as it appears that one of them was unable to carry a buggy up and down stairs they shouldn't have been using the Tube in the first place.

Considering that the bloke doesn't appear to put the brake on either of the buggies - the second one appears to move slightly after he leaves it - and the woman reaches under the neggy to retrieve her bag then going by simple genetics if their offspring do make it to adulthood its unlikely they are going to provide us with a cure for cancer.........

[Deleted]

Whilst it must have been a heart stopping moment for the Mum, I fully agree with 'aslefshrugged's post above. When I was a bus driver, I was always astounded by the stupidity of parents with pushchairs. I feel sorry for the T/Op on the approaching train; it must have been a nightmare scenario for him.

[norbitonflyer]

@ aslefshrugged

"“You may bring with you……folding buggies and folding cycles that you are able to carry yourself (including up/down fixed stairways) and 13.1.3 adds “You must not bring with you anything that…..you are unable to carry yourself (including up/down fixed stairways). This couple had two buggies and as it appears that one of them was unable to carry a buggy up and down stairs they shouldn't have been using the Tube in the first place."
I think they did comply with the letter of this - the couple had nothing with them they were unable to carry between them (indeed each buggy could, it seems, be carried by one person), albeit they were not able to carry all their impedimenta at once. I have often seen people helping each other on the stairs with their wheelie suitcases for example.

The footage clearly shows it had been parked in a sensible position, parallel to the tracks. Not putting the brakes on was a lesson learned though. The piston effect of the departing train did the rest. Not applying the second buggy's brakes is perhaps understandable given the immediate priority was to retrieve the first - and they were after all in a position to catch it if it did move. .

As for staying on the track to retrieve what had fallen out: I think many pepole would have done the same: it's not quite the same as going onto the track for he express purpose of retrieving the bag. If the approaching train had been nearer, or she was furtrher back down the platform, she might have got off more quickly.

Some lines have plungers which stop the trains - I'm not sure if the Northern Line is one of them, but even if it is, I think most people's instinctive reaction woulkd be to retrieve the infant the quickest way possible rather than look for a stop button.

The man in the shorts (with his arms folded) seems to be singularly uninterested in the drama unfolding in front of him.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty certain the Northern has no emergency stop plungers. We've discussed them before, over here. They're ATO-lines only, because they work by setting the maximum safe speed (or equivalent) to 0. jamesb informs us that they were installed on the jub but not commissioned and were never installed on the Northern.

What they don't do, as far as I know, is discharge traction current, so I'd still want my child off the tracks immediately.

I would agree that quickly grabbing the groceries (or whatever) is kind of understandable, especially in a crisis, you maybe aren't thinking quite as well as you would be normally, but it has to be said clearly that that wasn't a good idea, she could easily have come into contact with the negative rail. Besides which, in the panic, I think it'd be quite easily to slip or something as you attempted to get off of the tracks - it's deeper than it looks. As far as I'm concerned, every second a punter is on the tracks increases the danger. You want as much time as possible to get clear.

I'm willing to forgive forgetting to apply the brakes - as much as aslefshrugged's probably right. Many people don't realise how dangerous a platform can be cause they do it every day, just like every Londoner probably jaywalks. The piston effect is not that well known about. People should get the message about applying the brakes on their buggies on tube platforms, but - at the same time - we see how such a small, simple oversight, that any one of us could easily fall victim to, can have disastrous, unforeseen consequences.

[norbitonflyer]

Aug 12, 2014 11:06:40 GMT tut said:

she could easily have come into contact with the negative rail.

I read somewhere that the negative rail at stations is at 0V (the positive being at +660V) as against the usual +440V/ -220V, to reduce the risk to anyone falling into the pit. Is that not correct?

[Deleted]

Norbiton - I have to disagree with your interpretation of what people can carry, if both parents could carry a buggy each then fine but if only one of them can carry a buggy then two is beyond their capabilities. Regardless another stipulation of the conditions of carriage is that people keep their belongings with them at all times which includes buggies, this one was left unattended and it can hardly be described as parked in a sensible position if it ended up on the track.

tut - no, emergency platform plungers don't discharge current, the juice will still be on. She could easily have got 210 volts off the negative rail while reaching for her bag, same with the buggy. One reason we don't like passengers on the track is most of them don't have the slightest idea how much danger they are in.

Crispy.......

[rsdworker]

i think if fitted with emergency stop and should have power cut off button as well - WMATA has those - emergency stop in middle of plattform but power cut off at ends of platforms but DLR has this combined feature - once you push it its stops trains and turns off power in area - so only controller can turn back on when emergency is over

[peterc]

Two things struck me. One was the way that the buggy turned through 90 degrees before rolling towards the track. The other was the man on the platform with headphones on who seemed oblivious to the whole thing.

[theblackferret]

I noticed when on holiday a few weeks back, when we went to Walton-On-The-Naze for the day, how easily a 15mph off-shore breeze started to turn those buggies on the pier; no danger there btw, but disconcerting for the little 'un!

I expect because of that foldability precept, neither manufacturers nor users are fully aware of just how easily the resultant lightweight metalwork can be moved in a direction different to that intended.

[norbitonflyer]

The steering on a buggy is very light (think supermarket trolley) and in this case no doubt made even lighter by the weight of the object propped on the handlebars. I've seen an empty buggy blown over by a stiff breeze, but this one was blown along despite being occupied.

[Tomcakes]

I have seen buggies sent flying by the wind - they appear to be "designer" items conceived for look and status over function and safety.

I agree regarding the entitlement which a buggy seems to bring, despite it often being against the rules - LUL when asked about this matter say they cannot stop a passenger from bringing an item, such as a buggy they cannot handle, onto their premises!

As to jumping onto the track - in 1990/1 there was a fatal accident at a level crossing near Doncaster - a woman with two children on pushbikes was crossing the ECML. A child got his bike stuck in one of the lines, so she went back and attempted to unjam the bike. Unfortunately she wasn't successful and a 125mph HST... well, you can guess. Sure, a train hitting a pushbike isn't ideal and may cause a delay to the railways whilst it's investigated and possibly some repairs need doing to the locomotive, but far preferable to a fatality.

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

Aug 12, 2014 18:08:19 GMT Tomcakes said:

LUL when asked about this matter say they cannot stop a passenger from bringing an item, such as a buggy they cannot handle, onto their premises!

Where did LUL say they can't refuse someone with an item that they can't handle, a quote or a link would be nice as the Conditions of Carriage are very clear on the subject.....

13.1.4 Staff can refuse permission for you to take any item onto our services.

[Deleted]

Mmmm, I myself remember the T/Op asking somebody who had boarded a train with a bike at Stratford to leave the train - presumably a relatively common event in the life of an MoS, but a bit of a novelty for me.

[Deleted]

Hello after a long gap, its Diana here if you remember me, just came to see what was being written here about this happening, as I gave up using the underground and Docklands trains for a while because ... well I am now pushing one of these pushchairs myself - where is that smileyface - and I think I am the only one writing here doing this.

Firstly if your baby blows onto the railway line you go down and get her back. End. Every mama will do this. Yes it might be considered dangerous but we are NOT going to wait at all, same if it blows into the road what do you do wait for a policeman to come - no. There is stupidity in the news about this being seconds before a train because if you look at the television news you see the train just leaving and the pushchair is sucked down right after this and then mama goes down and picks it up. If you look at the television when she goes on the lines the camera moves a bit to keep her in the middle, someone is watching and controling that, can they stop the train from where they are?

I now go into the middle of London with the pram or the pushchair, on the Docklands to Canning Town then the lift then the Jubilee train to Green Park because you can come up in lifts there and go all round the parks or to the shops and things. Its quite possible although last year one of the Green Park lift was broken and I never knew till I got there.

That stuff about pushchairs must be folding, well I think they all are now, but trouble is you try and fold it when you are on your own and you have a baby with you (need 2 hands to hold) and underneath you have the bag for the 1000 things you now need to take with you (another hand needed) and have to then step on 2 levers and push closed (another 2 hands needed) it may be folding but you just cant do it. Rule written by man who never folded one I think.

[Deleted]

Aug 12, 2014 23:25:40 GMT @diana said:

If you look at the television when she goes on the lines the camera moves a bit to keep her in the middle, someone is watching and controling that, can they stop the train from where they are?

Just watched it again and there is no camera movement on any of the three views, no one was moving the cameras so possibly the station control room was unaware there was a problem at the time. Even if they did see what was sgoing on they are not in direct contact with the train and can't discharge current, they'd have to call the Northern Line control room at Coburn Street to do that. What stopped the train (whose approaching headlights you can see reflected on the rails in the third view) was the TOp seeing her on the track and activating the emergency brake.

Jumping down to rescue your baby is understandable, leaving the brake off on an unattended buggy and allowing it to blow on the track in the first place displays an alarming degree of negligence and irresponsibility. Leaning over a traction rail in order to retrieve your shopping shows either an ignorance of the Tube or plain stupidity, papa could have ended up as a single parent.

[Deleted]

Hasn't the Northern line control room been moved from Cobourg St to Highgate, cause of TBTC?

Can Wood Lane access the CCTV for the Central? I thought they could, which would make me suspect it's possible that someone in the Northern line control room could spot this on the camera and act; but I think the chances are vanishingly small that anyone would've noticed this with everything else going on in the control room, you'd have to just happen to be looking at the monitors, which'd have to just happen to be showing footage from the right place, unless you had some other reason to be monitoring Goodge St.

I'm completely behind Diana on rescuing the child (I don't remember you, as I'm new, but congrats on the baby). I would say, though, that you can see the approaching headlights as the lady concerned is getting back onto the platform - which is far too close for comfort and I'm sure if aslefshrugged saw that out of his cab window, he would be shaken. I hope I do you no disservice in suggesting that that contributes to your frustration.

As someone who doesn't spend his working life doing a job in the knowledge that someone could end up under his train, I'm inclined to be a little bit more sympathetic. I'm very glad everyone seems to be alright, I think the lady behaved admirably in rescuing the child, I think failing to secure the buggy was a silly, but all too understandable mistake and I think there's an opportunity to learn a lesson or two about how to be safe on the tube - and how dangerous the tube can be.

Regarding the pram rules, I think what we've seen shows why those rules are there. Rule written by someone trying to make sure that everyone gets home alive - however inconvenienced they are along the way. But I think it's pretty easy to see how and why people might not follow such rules to the letter and I think diana makes the case well. The practicalities and pragmatics of life get in the way, if they didn't, we could all go home on magic unicorns But on the other hand, there's 630 V down there and if 6 cars of 1995 stock hit a baby at any kind of speed, well, all I can say is I'd rather walk all the way back home pushing the buggy. But that's obviously not the thought that's at the forefront of peoples' minds - the chances (if people are aware there's any chance at all) seem so slim and when you're in a rush and you've got a million things to carry and twice as many things to do, well you take risks, sometimes without even realising that what you're doing is risky.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2014 2:40:20 GMT aslefshrugged said:

]Just watched it again and there is no camera movement on any of the three views, no one was moving the cameras so possibly the station control room was unaware there was a problem at the time.

Do look here at 0.45 seconds right after the train going away camera moves to get better view of it.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/seconds-death-child-pram-blown-4036999

[norbitonflyer]

Aug 13, 2014 6:43:54 GMT @diana said:

Aug 13, 2014 2:40:20 GMT aslefshrugged said:

]Just watched it again and there is no camera movement on any of the three views, no one was moving the cameras so possibly the station control room was unaware there was a problem at the time.

Do look here at 0.45 seconds right after the train going away camera moves to get better view of it.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/seconds-death-child-pram-blown-4036999

Do these cameras move automatically to avoid burn out? I recall the screens of older ones fitted for OPO had long black streaks where the headlights of thousands of trains had done just that.

Buggies may be foldable, but not with a toddler in them. The buggy not only serves to move the toddler about, but also as a "control and restraint" system to stop them wandering off. The risk of a buggy wandering off with a toddler on board is perceived as far lower than a toddler, free of such constraint, wandering into danger whilst the parent has his/her hands full of a folded buggy.

[whistlekiller2000]

Aug 13, 2014 2:40:20 GMT aslefshrugged said:

Jumping down to rescue your baby is understandable, leaving the brake off on an unattended buggy and allowing it to blow on the track in the first place displays an alarming degree of negligence and irresponsibility. Leaning over a traction rail in order to retrieve your shopping shows either an ignorance of the Tube or plain stupidity, papa could have ended up as a single parent.

I often see adults pushing prams out into the road from behind parked cars where they can't have any idea of whether there's something coming or not. This action is usually accompanied by the use of a mobile phone.........

[v52gc]

Not long ago before the low floor buses my mother had to fold the buggy, carry me and any bags/shopping onto the bus up two steps as well as pay the driver.

This whole terrifying situation can be simplified.
-Never leave anything unattended on platforms that could be blown onto the tracks; be it suitcases, bags or especially a buggy with a child in it!
-Don't start a journey you can't finish
-Don't go on the tracks to retrieve personal items.

I agree wholly with Aslefshrugged in the enforcement of the conditions of carriage, they mostly make sense. However Diana is also right in that the pushchair designs are too complicated requiring two levers to be pulled to fold it up and if the journey can be completed without the need to fold it why should it! As has been said it protects the child (if not left unattended!)

The other day I witnessed an argument on the bus; there was already one pushchair in the wheelchair space, somebody boards from the rear with another larger pushchair then goes to tap their Oyster card at the front of the bus. Another pushchair is about to get on at the front (which was queuing with everybody else) and the driver tells the person with the large pushchair to leave as they should have boarded the front and that the pushchair boarding at the front was before them. Large pushchair starts shouting that their pushchair is too big to get down the aisle so they have to get on the back!
I couldn't help thinking that maybe they should have bought a pushchair more suitable to their needs then.
In the end the pushchair getting on at the front was folded.

Well done to the train operator for stopping the train! Good thing it wasn't a driverless train!

[rsdworker]

the driver less trains can stop if objects detected on track by sensors or activated by emergency stop plungers

[domh245]

Unfortunately though, no stop plungers gave been fitted to the northern or jubilee lines, and AFAIK, no 'road monitoring' sensors have been fitted to any driverless trains anywhere so far. I suspect that even a very sophisticated sensor would have trouble detecting small items such as handbags.