mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 6, 2009 22:16:19 GMT
The subStandard have named it the 'squiggle of Satan'.
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Post by abe on Dec 7, 2009 8:30:39 GMT
One Friday lunchtime a few weeks ago, I caught a Wimbledon train from Great Portland Street. What did the DMI at the station show? |
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Post by citysig on Dec 7, 2009 10:10:53 GMT
What did the DMI at the station show? It can show Wimbledon there, but is unlikely to. We tend to leave trains that are forming Wimbeldons up as their original destination to avoid confusing people. Trust me, I don't care what some will have you believe, if you show Wimbledon then a lot less people will board the train, and end up having to wait up to 8 minutes more for a "correctly" described train to their destination. If it's a Circle, then most of the people on board at that point will be able to continue on the "Wimbledon" and reach their destination. If it's a Hammersmith, then people will at least still board it and change at Edgware Road to a connecting service. The majority of Hammersmith trains utilised for Wimbledons are normally part of a stock changeover, therefore the "ex District" train will end up forming the Hammersmith train from Edgware Road, with both trains positioned side-by-side. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2009 11:03:27 GMT
What did the DMI at the station show? The majority of Hammersmith trains utilised for Wimbledons are normally part of a stock changeover, therefore the "ex District" train will end up forming the Hammersmith train from Edgware Road, with both trains positioned side-by-side. I've noticed that it seems to be more of this happening recently T161/2 spotted on my patch last week |
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Colin
Advisor
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Post by Colin on Dec 7, 2009 16:47:43 GMT
When you say "my patch", can I ask roughly where that might be?
Judging by your postcode, I would suggest 161 & 162 are quite correct as these are the peak extra Wimbledon-Edgware Road trains!
Well at least for the rest of this week anyway - as from next week there won't be any peak extras on the 'wimbleware' service...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 7, 2009 21:27:35 GMT
One Friday lunchtime a few weeks ago, I caught a Wimbledon train from Great Portland Street. What did the DMI at the station show? Circle Line via Paddington, but it said Wimbledon on the blind. 2nd train was also Circle Line. Mine went into platform 3 at Ed Rd. |
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Post by citysig on Dec 7, 2009 23:18:36 GMT
Due to a mixture of defective trains and late-running, this particular thing (a District arriving at Edgware Road from the Baker Street direction) happened no less than 4 times this evening between around 1600 and 2000. They would have been shown as a mixture of "Hammersmith" "Circle" and "Edgware Road" destinations. Strangely, 162 (1634 ex Edgware Road to Wimbledon) was one such train the "originated" from a Circle Line train.
Normally the driver will be told a fair way back what is to happen to their train "on arrival at Edgware Road," and some take the opportunity to make the change the blind / train number there and then. This no doubt gives the confusion we try to avoid by keeping the dot matrix display as the original service.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 8, 2009 19:26:09 GMT
Wasn't the original T Cup/Extended Circle supposed to be Wimbledon-Hammersmith via Circle & back with just the Wimblewares covering Paddington to High St?
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Post by uzairjubilee on Dec 8, 2009 19:31:29 GMT
Going back to the DMI -
I was coming back from school and was at Victoria (D&C platforms) waiting for a train to Wimbledon. When a Circle line train came, it showed Circle Line (via Aldgate being almost unreadable)
It looks like most of the C stocks have been fitted with the new blinds
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Post by astock5000 on Dec 8, 2009 20:37:53 GMT
Also, some of the maps on the C stock show the Circle line as gold at some points - I'm guessing this was a printing error? I was on a C stock with the new maps on saturday, and the Circle line was almost black on part of the map. It looks like most of the C stocks have been fitted with the new blinds They must have changed a lot of them in the last couple of days, because on saturday, nearly all C stock that I saw had the old blinds. |
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Post by d7666 on Dec 8, 2009 21:50:33 GMT
Yes, I'd say the majority of the new in car tube maps I've seen on C stock in the last few days have a more gold-ish Hammersmith & Circle rather than yellow towards the western part of the map, gradually changing through light grey to dark grey towards the City, then verging back towards gold/grey on the eastern rim, although its a bit more complex than that. Need an image to show it up properly.
Must be a printing error that is too late to correct by printing another batch else I'm sure they'd not be used.
--
Nick
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Post by citysig on Dec 8, 2009 22:55:31 GMT
Also, some of the maps on the C stock show the Circle line as gold at some points - I'm guessing this was a printing error? I was on a C stock with the new maps on saturday, and the Circle line was almost black on part of the map. It looks like most of the C stocks have been fitted with the new blinds They must have changed a lot of them in the last couple of days, because on saturday, nearly all C stock that I saw had the old blinds. It's probably just over half the fleet from what I've seen today. Given that many of the defective trains were fixed over night, opportunity may of course been taken to fit those (8) trains with new blinds as well as the scheduled stablers at Hammersmith. |
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Post by citysig on Dec 8, 2009 22:57:17 GMT
Yes, I'd say the majority of the new in car tube maps I've seen on C stock in the last few days have a more gold-ish Hammersmith & Circle rather than yellow towards the western part of the map, gradually changing through light grey to dark grey towards the City, then verging back towards gold/grey on the eastern rim, although its a bit more complex than that. Need an image to show it up properly. Must be a printing error that is too late to correct by printing another batch else I'm sure they'd not be used. -- Nick Yes I've noticed a lot of them look as though the ink has been smudged. Maybe a cheap print run, and maybe they haven't spent as much money on this timetable as appeared. Has anyone tried touching any of the new signs. Does the ink rub off  ;D |
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
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Post by Phil on Dec 8, 2009 23:02:29 GMT
Yes I've noticed a lot of them look as though the ink has been smudged. Maybe a cheap print run, and maybe they haven't spent as much money on this timetable as appeared. Has anyone tried touching any of the new signs. Does the ink rub off ;D Is this because they don't think they'll be needed for that long??  |
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Post by citysig on Dec 8, 2009 23:09:43 GMT
Now would I suggest that  5 days to go ;D |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2009 6:20:10 GMT
Management have cancelled all 5 day block refresher training for next week apparently. I wonder why that could be???!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2009 12:17:32 GMT
You may find the viynals may be dry to touch but if they are a cheap run then they may not be solvent friendly - even very week detergents can cause some to smear! Wonder how well they'l stand up to the graffitti remover ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2009 13:19:56 GMT
Employee Comms sent a PDF of the revised Tube Map which now shows the Circle going to Hammersmith, and the River Thames.
Due to hit stations for display on the 11th December.
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
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Post by Phil on Dec 9, 2009 13:51:20 GMT
Perhaps I'm a bit slow, but I've only just realized the implications for the disabled at Paddington going E/B. At present there is only one escalator from Padd NR down to the circle then that's it as far as E/B journeys go. Even wheelchairs (with a helper) can manage that if they want to.
Now the only 2 alternatives are either use the above route then a forced change at ERD, or, tongue in cheek, up the stairs to Bishops Road entrance (H&C) , along the bridge then all the way down to the narrow platforms.
So how does that rate as anything other than a 'negative improvement' under the DDA regulations??
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Post by 21146 on Dec 9, 2009 18:04:19 GMT
Noted today the "Circle Line via Aldgate" blind already being used despite the new blinds still having a plain "Circle Line" display.
Typcial H&C destination blind discipline (or lack of it) which has always been a problem on lines with short runs (viz ELL, Epping-Ongar, Hainault-Woodford).
What with earlier disruption at least half of the C Stock I saw at Farringdon had incorrect rear displays - Circles showing "Barking" or "Plaistow", H&C's with "Wimbledon" and District 07X set numbers.
Would it not be better to have rear screens turned to "blank" as a standard practice?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2009 20:25:23 GMT
Had an interesting TOP on D/H162 WIM-EDR this morning (Bayswater 0954), outside Edgware Road he tells us that the "Circle line is not going to be a Circle anymore, and that Wimbledons will terminate on platform 3,that if you want to go to Baker Street and Kings Cross you will have to use the footbridge to cross over to P1, Check the website for more info, Interesting"
5726 has the new blinds as spotted on D074
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Post by citysig on Dec 9, 2009 22:20:03 GMT
Would it not be better to have rear screens turned to "blank" as a standard practice? "Standard practice" is generally to change the rear end to the next destination before changing ends. However, during disruptions where any train can make any other heading in the same direction, the very last thing we want happening is a further delay whilst the driver nips down the back and changes the blind there also. The benefits of doing so are far far outweighed by the delay caused (the train operator would, of course, be entitled to take up to 4 minutes each way. And the number of people who could see the rear of the train before they board it? Very few) Come next week, all services will at some point within the next hour or so end up terminating, and all trains will then be updated back and front. I don't think there is a single occasion - apart from where it involves a problem with the last 2 trains on a line - where I would have a train delayed in order to correct the rear number or blind. |
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Post by 21146 on Dec 9, 2009 23:49:10 GMT
Would it not be better to have rear screens turned to "blank" as a standard practice? "Standard practice" is generally to change the rear end to the next destination before changing ends. However, during disruptions where any train can make any other heading in the same direction, the very last thing we want happening is a further delay whilst the driver nips down the back and changes the blind there also. The benefits of doing so are far far outweighed by the delay caused (the train operator would, of course, be entitled to take up to 4 minutes each way. And the number of people who could see the rear of the train before they board it? Very few) Come next week, all services will at some point within the next hour or so end up terminating, and all trains will then be updated back and front. I don't think there is a single occasion - apart from where it involves a problem with the last 2 trains on a line - where I would have a train delayed in order to correct the rear number or blind. EXACTLY! So now that there are no longer Guards on LU trains, alas, it would surely be better to, as a standard practice, turn rear blinds to blank BECAUSE there is no one at the back to change it if trains are diverted or short-tripped. At one level it's fortunate that there are a diminishing number of stocks with manually-wound blinds; less so that the newer LED/DMI displays, which can be altered from the front, are so much smaller - really friendly for the visually-impaired! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 10, 2009 0:08:35 GMT
But how often, except at a terminus, do intending passengers see the blind at the rear of a train?
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 10, 2009 0:36:03 GMT
I don't think there is a single occasion - apart from where it involves a problem with the last 2 trains on a line - where I would have a train delayed in order to correct the rear number or blind. Are there not circumstances where the number displayed on the rear could be of use? And why on earth would it take 8 minutes to walk there and back again?! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 6:35:11 GMT
As drivers we have had no guidance at all (at least not so far as i've been made aware) on what to describe our trains as so under the new timetable you will still see various descriptions I shouldnt wonder.
A number of drivers have said (in the messroom) that they are not prepared to keep changing the blind (some are very stiff, and since the installation of the so-called cab-cooling system it's easy to catch your knuckles on the thing that blows out air).
Another couple have (perhaps sensibly) said when they go around the inner rail, rather than use the "Circle Line to Hammersmith" description from Aldgate they will describe it as "Hammersmith via Paddington" so as not to confuse people who require Circle Line stations Bayswater and beyond who may have missed the miniscule "to Hammersmith" suffix. The same has been said of the "Circle Line to Edgware Road" description. If we use "Circle Line to Hammersmith", I have visions of Royal Oak and Westbourne Park being even busier than they are now with people crossing over to go back after realising they are on the wrong train!
Seeing as we've had no guidance on the subject - you can expect to see all sorts of different descriptions running about on the new timetable (summed up already by some drivers using the "via Aldergate" description, i've also seen Circles with the "to Edgware Road" suffix this week when they are running round!). Then of course there is also the possibility of drivers forgetting to change the blind 3 times per trip...
As for the 8 minutes, the agreed minimum time for a driver to change ends is 4 minutes. Therefore going there and back would be a minimum of 8 minutes.
Of course 8 minutes may not be enough to go one way on this new timetable when everybody is stopping to ask questions!!!
Finally, even though they have updated the blinds, they have failed to provide an updated sticker in the cab telling us the correct order of the destinations...
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on Dec 10, 2009 7:58:43 GMT
Another couple have (perhaps sensibly) said when they go around the inner rail, rather than use the "Circle Line to Hammersmith" description from Aldgate they will describe it as "Hammersmith via Paddington" so as not to confuse people who require Circle Line stations Bayswater and beyond who may have missed the miniscule "to Hammersmith" suffix. Unfortunately these are the very passengers who DO need the new description, because there are no other trains they can catch to reach their destination. The fact they now have no option but to change at ERD to do so is the subject of the whole thread. In other words a passenger at Euston Square for Bayswater will never see a train for his appropriate journey if everything comes labelled Hammersmith. He would have to know by other means that this is the train to catch. OTOH since he now has to change at ERD anyway, he can now catch anything labelled Hammersmith...... |
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Post by citysig on Dec 10, 2009 9:39:40 GMT
Are there not circumstances where the number displayed on the rear could be of use? And why on earth would it take 8 minutes to walk there and back again?! We try to educate all staff of the fact that our trains run forwards, and therefore anything at the back - apart from the tail lights - should be disregarded. The way in which we run our service is to utilise any train for any destination - obviously stocks cannot be mixed and matched. To enable the rear of the train to become "valid" at all times would take one of the following: 1) Keep all trains on their exact paths throughout the day and do not re-number / divert anything. This would cause some pretty horrific gaps post-peak. 2) Get drivers to change the number and destination blind at both ends, regardless of location, whenever we reform the service. Minimum 8 minute shutdown for some of these requests. 3) Spend huge amounts of money on a fleet of trains that won't be with us in a few years, and give them electronic destination and number displays. 4) Educate everyone - customers included - that the rear of the train is just that. It's been and gone. If you're seeing the rear of the train, 9 times out of 10 it's because you've missed the train. Therefore why worry where it's going - you're not on it. Our dot matrix displays always show a destination, or they show "Check FRONT of train for destination. I have yet to come across one which says "Check rear of train for where the train went earlier, and try and guess where it's going now." 5) Let's just get over the whole rear of train thing. Next week it will be hard enough to work out where each train is heading let alone where it's been. Next we'll be discussing what should be shown on the middle cab. As for turning blinds to a BLANK, this was tried and later removed by some smart person a few years back. It was deemed that the rear of the train should show something clearly (even if it was wrong), rather than nothing or a blind that was wound to halfway between 2 displays. |
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Post by 21146 on Dec 10, 2009 11:07:26 GMT
As drivers we have had no guidance at all (at least not so far as i've been made aware) on what to describe our trains as so under the new timetable you will still see various descriptions I shouldnt wonder. A number of drivers have said (in the messroom) that they are not prepared to keep changing the blind (some are very stiff, and since the installation of the so-called cab-cooling system it's easy to catch your knuckles on the thing that blows out air). Another couple have (perhaps sensibly) said when they go around the inner rail, rather than use the "Circle Line to Hammersmith" description from Aldgate they will describe it as "Hammersmith via Paddington" so as not to confuse people who require Circle Line stations Bayswater and beyond who may have missed the miniscule "to Hammersmith" suffix. The same has been said of the "Circle Line to Edgware Road" description. If we use "Circle Line to Hammersmith", I have visions of Royal Oak and Westbourne Park being even busier than they are now with people crossing over to go back after realising they are on the wrong train! Seeing as we've had no guidance on the subject - you can expect to see all sorts of different descriptions running about on the new timetable (summed up already by some drivers using the "via Aldergate" description, i've also seen Circles with the "to Edgware Road" suffix this week when they are running round!). Then of course there is also the possibility of drivers forgetting to change the blind 3 times per trip... As for the 8 minutes, the agreed minimum time for a driver to change ends is 4 minutes. Therefore going there and back would be a minimum of 8 minutes. Of course 8 minutes may not be enough to go one way on this new timetable when everybody is stopping to ask questions!!! Finally, even though they have updated the blinds, they have failed to provide an updated sticker in the cab telling us the correct order of the destinations... Leaving aside the benefits (or otherwise) of correct rear destination blinds for now, I find it incredible if it's true that C&H management have issued no guidelines for front displays come December 13th! Indeed I looked in vain for something to this effect in the new C&H WTT, given that suitable instructions regarding TD's have appeared in engineering work TTs in the past. If this basic requirement is not being catered for then there really does seem to be an all-grades conspiracy to do this new service down before it's even started! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 11:36:30 GMT
I would have, respectfully, thought it is perfectly obvious what a train on each of the Circle or Hammersmith & City respectively should be displaying. However the lack of any sort of sticker showing what displays are available means only the enthusiastic will know what the options are and thus the rest will wind up the first vaguely reasonable option. It is very poor no proper guidance has been issued.
It is a REQUIREMENT that drivers display the correct destination on BOTH ends of the train UNLESS it has been reformed (I presume to include a destination reform).
*****RULE BOOK 6, SECTION 2.9*****
I have never understood why H&C / Circle drivers and more recently an increasing number of Metropolitan Line drivers are allowed to get away with not bothering. Until we recently lost roller blinds on refurbishment we NEVER had an issue of the District Line with our trains routenely showing the correct destination on BOTH ends of the train.
The H&C certainly serves most east end stations where many customers will approach the train from steps to the rear with a full view of the rear display.
The blame must fall squarely on LUL local management for their failure to properly enforce standards on this issue and again, locally, a total managerial ignorance of their rule book requirements.
(I do however agree with Prakash, they do (on buses also) like to surround the blind winding handles with sharp things or objects to skin your knuckles !!!)
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;D
5 days to go ;D
