The New Circle

[Deleted]

Dec 16, 2009 19:20:47 GMT North End said:

I tend to agree with MetControl on this - correct information on the rear blind is a "nice to have", but in the grand scheme of things it's really not essential at all. I just don't think it's something which really affects passengers at all.

But what is wrong is having (and worse, planning to have) incorrect information on the rear blind (or anywhere else).

While I appreciate the issues over changing it in mid-journey, if this cannot be done it should be either set to something that won't change en route, such as (in the context of this thread) 'Circle Line', or just to blank (as mid train blinds should be).

[Tomcakes]

Dec 16, 2009 19:20:47 GMT North End said:

Dec 16, 2009 12:59:04 GMT Tomcakes said:

Come to think of it, who says it must be the driver who changes the back screen?

Is it not possible, say, for a member of station staff to enter the back cab and do the necessary few turns of a handle? Or are the keys required to get in a cab not kept at stations? No doubt some jobsworth would get his knickers in a twist about being told to do something a tiny bit outside his job description, too...

1) Station staff are not trained to operate cab equipment.

2) If staff are entering an unoccupied cab, arrangements need to be made to ensure that the staff member is not overcarried (which could result in a station staffing level falling below minimum legally required numbers), or more importantly that he has some protection in place to ensure the train won't move as he enters or leaves the cab via a side door or 'M' door.

Yes it could be done, but it would take effort and time, the latter being something LU claims to value.

I tend to agree with MetControl on this - correct information on the rear blind is a "nice to have", but in the grand scheme of things it's really not essential at all. I just don't think it's something which really affects passengers at all.

I'm sure that with a little effort and time, as you say, it would be possible to train station staff on the immensely complex workings of a destination blind .

[norbitonflyer]

What used to happen on lines with terminal loops, (Central (Hainault), Piccadilly (Heathrow), Northern (Kennington) when they still had blinds rather than these new-fangled electronic destination indicators?

[mrfs42]

In the case of the Central there were instructions printed in the front of the WTT, can't rember the Picc, likewise I've seen instructions for Kennington and Strand loops, which from memory were that the blinds/plates were to be changed when stood at signal B 36 ^{A or B} for Kennington and for Strand were to be changed when entering the loop.

[citysig]

Dec 16, 2009 21:37:48 GMT Tomcakes said:

I'm sure that with a little effort and time, as you say, it would be possible to train station staff on the immensely complex workings of a destination blind .

Oh come on please. I've been and done a shift at work and hours later find we're still slogging this one to death.

Simple choice. Trains that turn up on time because the large majority of staff all over are doing their bit to keep things moving.

Or.

Big stick country, with every tiny indiscretion laboured upon. We'll hold up the service - even at terminal stations - just so that the blind can be corrected.

Surely option 1 is best. Trains which are punctual, less crowded and have a train operator keen to keep to time, rather than a train operator who feels he/she is being picked on continuously and on this latest occasion it is because they forgot to show x,y,z on the blind at the rear of the train.

I can tell you now that H&C management are simply not going to add this to the agenda right now. A new timetable is in. So far it is working very well indeed. Everyone needs to get used to it. The last thing on anyone's mind is what is showing at the back of a train - apart from making sure there are 2 red lights.

Can we please leave it there. I'm pleading with you all now. Maybe next year someone without anything to do will target this area. But for now, let's have our trains running with the correct info shown at the front. I won't be commenting on any further posts regarding rear destination blinds.

Thank you in advance.

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 16, 2009 23:00:01 GMT mrfs42 said:

In the case of the Central there were instructions printed in the front of the WTT, can't rember the Picc, likewise I've seen instructions for Kennington and Strand loops, which from memory were that the blinds/plates were to be changed when stood at signal B 36 ^{A or B} for Kennington and for Strand were to be changed when entering the loop.

At the rear as well as the front?

[Colin]

Dec 16, 2009 22:51:41 GMT norbitonflyer said:

What used to happen on lines with terminal loops, (Central (Hainault), Piccadilly (Heathrow), Northern (Kennington) when they still had blinds rather than these new-fangled electronic destination indicators?

Whilst I'd acknowledge this isn't a complete answer, I would suggest that for the most part of the time that trains on these lines had manual blinds, they also had guards - it would have been the guards job to do the rear.

[rincew1nd]

**tries to drag this thread back to "The New Circle"**

I'm going to Chelmsford tomorrow from Liverpool, the National Rail website suggests Virgin to Euston, Circle to Liverpool Street (from Euston Square), then Nat' Ex' out to Essex.

The journey planner states I will arrive Euston at 9:56, and leave Liverpool Street at 10:48, giving me a transfer time of 52 minutes. Allowing ten minutes to interchange at each end, that still leaves me with 32 minutes of UndergrounD, do National Rail not trust The New Extended Circle (especially considering the TfL site suggests Euston Square to Liverpool St is 12-13 minutes)?

As it is I'm going to get the Northern Line to Moorgate and pick up the first SSR train that appears as I have an Oyster refund to collect from Euston barrier (my card got muchly confused by my line bashing over the forum meet weekend,)

[mrfs42]

Dec 16, 2009 23:05:35 GMT norbitonflyer said:

At the rear as well as the front?

Yes - however, bear in mind that in some of these cases there would have been Gatemen to help as well. ;D

[Colin]

Dec 16, 2009 23:20:47 GMT rincew1nd said:

I'm going to Chelmsford tomorrow from Liverpool, the National Rail website suggests Virgin to Euston, Circle to Liverpool Street (from Euston Square), then Nat' Ex' out to Essex.

The journey planner states I will arrive Euston at 9:56, and leave Liverpool Street at 10:48, giving me a transfer time of 52 minutes. Allowing ten minutes to interchange at each end, that still leaves me with 32 minutes of UndergrounD, do National Rail not trust The New Extended Circle (especially considering the TfL site suggests Euston Square to Liverpool St is 12-13 minutes)?

Just because your train leaves Liverpool Street at 1048, this does not necessarily mean the 'tube' part of your must be 32 minutes - it is far more likely that even if the journey is 12 minutes and you allow 10 minutes at each end, the next train out of Liverpool street would still be the 1048.

If there's an earlier departure at Liverpool Street (I don't know the frequency, but I doubt it anyway), then my theory is wrong - but I bet that's most likely the case.

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 16, 2009 23:31:40 GMT Colin said:

If there's an earlier departure at Liverpool Street (I don't know the frequency, but I doubt it anyway), then my theory is wrong - but I bet that's most likely the case.

There are five trains to Chelmsford an hour - the previous two are at 1030 and 1038.

[Phil]

Dec 16, 2009 23:00:06 GMT @citysig said:

Oh come on please. I've been and done a shift at work and hours later find we're still slogging this one to death.

Can we please leave it there. I'm pleading with you all now. Maybe next year someone without anything to do will target this area.

Thank you in advance.

Metcontrol is right. There is no further point to be made since all have their entrenched views, which are (a) I know the rule book and stick to it whatever (b) I have to do whatever I can to keep the **** service running and (c) I've never worked for LU but reckon I know better than anyone else.

So no further discussion of blinds is allowed until they bring back guards to do it..

[happybunny]

Dec 16, 2009 23:31:40 GMT Colin said:

Dec 16, 2009 23:20:47 GMT rincew1nd said:

I'm going to Chelmsford tomorrow from Liverpool, the National Rail website suggests Virgin to Euston, Circle to Liverpool Street (from Euston Square), then Nat' Ex' out to Essex.

The journey planner states I will arrive Euston at 9:56, and leave Liverpool Street at 10:48, giving me a transfer time of 52 minutes. Allowing ten minutes to interchange at each end, that still leaves me with 32 minutes of UndergrounD, do National Rail not trust The New Extended Circle (especially considering the TfL site suggests Euston Square to Liverpool St is 12-13 minutes)?

Just because your train leaves Liverpool Street at 1048, this does not necessarily mean the 'tube' part of your must be 32 minutes - it is far more likely that even if the journey is 12 minutes and you allow 10 minutes at each end, the next train out of Liverpool street would still be the 1048.

If there's an earlier departure at Liverpool Street (I don't know the frequency, but I doubt it anyway), then my theory is wrong - but I bet that's most likely the case.

Nat Ex website ALWAYS gives loads of time to make a tube journey as part of a mainline journey.. they don't trust us to provide a good service at all

[Deleted]

why did the Wimbleware service had a lack of trains this morning?
I travel on the WBP-EDR stretch everyday and have encountered more problems than ever ever since Sunday's Changes

[1938]

Dec 17, 2009 16:42:41 GMT @juliang said:

why did the Wimbleware service had a lack of trains this morning?
I travel on the WBP-EDR stretch everyday and have encountered more problems than ever ever since Sunday's Changes

A shortage of serviceable C Stock has been cited as the cause.

[metman]

Yes, this is what I feared could happen. Get the S7s in first!

[21146]

Well I don't think there's a single working platform train describer on the Hammersmith branch (Paddington oddly excepted) and scores of other LU stations still don't have them either.

[SE13]

Dec 17, 2009 18:27:12 GMT @21146 said:

Well I don't think there's a single working platform train describer on the Hammersmith branch (Paddington oddly excepted) and scores of other LU stations still don't have them either.

But if you are on the Hammersmith branch, you are either heading toward Hammersmith or you aren't. The maps at each entry tell you where you are heading, honestly it can't be that difficult to comprehend surely?

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2009 18:33:49 GMT SE13 said:

But if you are on the Hammersmith branch, you are either heading toward Hammersmith or you aren't. The maps at each entry tell you where you are heading, honestly it can't be that difficult to comprehend surely?

You'd think so, but incredibly, it does seem to be beyond some people. Don't think looking at the front of the train comes to their mind in those cases either.

[21146]

We seem to drifting into the type of "destination blind" type discussion which has already been banned. Point is if you're going E/B on the Hammersmith branch all trains went to Whitechapel or beyond; from Dec 13 it could also be an Outer Rail Circle too. If rear displays are not neccesary then it's odd that in recent years they've introduced side destinations on cars too. Fortunately drivers don't have to change these and the S Stock will solve all of this anyway. But we still have the lack of platform train describers at many locations, something operators like BVG in Berlin rectified years ago. Even when new DMIs are fitted they are often driven by the old signalling TD equipment and give, maybe 30 seconds advance warning of an approaching train. The Ladbroke Grove 'group control room' staff seem to spend all day making long-line 'next train' PA messages on the branch so clearly some people think this information is important.

[Deleted]

If you don't know what kind of train it is on say Latmier Rd, the DVA will tell you... Only place I can see where this could be hard is Liverpool St and High St Kensington, but there surely is a platform describer there?

[metman]

Yes there is.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2009 18:12:43 GMT @1938 said:

Dec 17, 2009 16:42:41 GMT @juliang said:

why did the Wimbleware service had a lack of trains this morning?
I travel on the WBP-EDR stretch everyday and have encountered more problems than ever ever since Sunday's Changes

A shortage of serviceable C Stock has been cited as the cause.

Oh right cheers for the explanation, I thought the Circle has been taking 07xs again!

I wish the S7 would hurry up, i can't bear those Cs any longer!

[rincew1nd]

Dec 17, 2009 7:55:07 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Dec 16, 2009 23:31:40 GMT Colin said:

If there's an earlier departure at Liverpool Street (I don't know the frequency, but I doubt it anyway), then my theory is wrong - but I bet that's most likely the case.

There are five trains to Chelmsford an hour - the previous two are at 1030 and 1038.

I caught the 1030, 22 minutes concourse to concourse. However the 1030 was delayed 17 minutes awaiting traincrew.

Coming home I took a Met to Euston Square, this time it took me 17 minutes concourse to pub , so probably 20mins concourse to concourse.

I guess allowing ten minutes to get from Notwork Rail to UndergrounD, the National Rail site wasn't too wrong, if I was advising someone who didn't know the way I'd probably give them the same allowance.

[Phil]

Dec 17, 2009 19:59:41 GMT @21146 said:

We seem to drifting into the type of "destination blind" type discussion which has already been banned.

Correct - which is why I've deleted several posts. Next time either the posts (or the posters...) will be deleted and the thread locked.

[citysig]

Dec 17, 2009 18:12:43 GMT @1938 said:

A shortage of serviceable C Stock has been cited as the cause.

Just as a little side-note to this, C-stock availability has been hit with a couple of problems this week (which I won't elaborate on here.)

With the old timetable(s) the cancellations for lack of serviceable rolling stock were balanced between all services. Put simply, the "plan" (subject to alteration of course) was cancel an Inner-Rail Circle, followed by an Outer Rail Circle, followed by a H&C then, if 4 trains were unavailable, cancel one of the C-stock District Trains.

With the new timetable, it's now a case that the "plan" (again subject to alteration) is that for the first 2 trains unavailable, Hammersmith & City (not Hammersmith & Circle) services will be "sacrificed" followed by the 3rd train unavailable being a District cancellation.

So unfortunately, during times of rolling stock unavailability, the Edgware Road-Wimbledon service may now suffer more than in the past.

This keeps the new Circle service more or less without cancellation, and thus avoids any hefty 20-minute gaps on either side, but does mean there will be gaps on the Liverpool Street-Plaistow/Barking section of the H&C.

It won't be forever. Availability generally goes in waves. For a week or 2 you have loads of trains with defects, then you enter a period where everything is fixed and you have spare trains to play with.

[mrfs42]

Dec 17, 2009 23:26:38 GMT @citysig said:

With the new timetable, it's now a case that the "plan" (again subject to alteration) is that for the first 2 trains unavailable, Hammersmith & City (not Hammersmith & Circle) services will be "sacrificed" followed by the 3rd train unavailable being a District cancellation.

Is that 'plan' something evolved through discussion and examination of the timetable; or has there been an instruction from your superiors not to cancel an 'Extended Circle' 'C' stock - in other words it has been deemed preferable to cancel the 1523 ex Hm to Barking, rather than the 1528 ex Hm into the EC service - unless the stock that would form the 1528 was cancelled beforehand when it was coming in from Barking?

Is the cancellation decision made based on what the train is doing or is about to do?

[citysig]

Without sticking my head on the block, basically put the people of London were promised a more reliable Circle Line. To allow them to experience a 20-minute delay (1 cancellation) is not "more reliable."

So during the current situation with stock, we are being asked to focus our efforts on ensuring the Circle paths are covered, and no 20-minute gaps occur.

The "change" to each train occurs mainly at Edgware Road. So in terms of the section Hammersmith-Edgware Road, even if there is a cancellation, the largest gap is 10 minutes (although efforts are made to make this slightly less than that.) So the Hammersmith branch of the Circle (see what I did there ) never sees a gap much more than the old timetable.

The decision is made mainly for the eastbound trip - that is if there is a Circle cancelled then the train will form a Circle trip from Edgware Road onwards.

Nobody is saying "Right we have our new Circle Line, keep it running at all costs and stuff the old H&C east of Liverpool Street" but in these times of difficulty, what we are saying is "We promised you an improved Circle Line and an improved service on the Hammersmith branch" which, to all intents and purposes has been achieved.

[1938]

Dec 17, 2009 23:13:00 GMT Phil said:

Dec 17, 2009 19:59:41 GMT @21146 said:

We seem to drifting into the type of "destination blind" type discussion which has already been banned.

Correct - which is why I've deleted several posts. Next time either the posts (or the posters...) will be deleted and the thread locked.

Wow! A bit harsh Phil, I was only replying to a moderator's post!!

[Colin]

Dec 17, 2009 18:27:12 GMT @21146 said:

Well I don't think there's a single working platform train describer on the Hammersmith branch (Paddington oddly excepted) and scores of other LU stations still don't have them either.

I'm risking the wrath of Phil, but I do feel this comment requires an explanation...

I dunno if anything is displayed on the Paddington DMI's, nor if there is where the information comes from, but I can categorically state that Hammersmith cabin has no facility to allocate TD's.

For all trains originating from Hammersmith, the first point at which a TD can be allocated is Edgware Road - which is also why the TD only appears on the DMI in platform 1, and to a lesser extent in platform 2, just before the trains arrival. When the TD appears on the platform DMI, you have literally just witnessed the signaller allocating it in Edgware Road cabin!

TD - Train Description
DMI - Dot Matrix Indicator (or next train indicator on the platform)