The New Circle

[Phil]

Dec 18, 2009 0:31:56 GMT @1938 said:

................ I was only replying to a moderator's post!!

Nothing personal - your facts are correct precisely as you state them, and the fault is not yours (other than not knowing what went on about 15 posts up the page) .

[Phil]

Dec 18, 2009 2:14:08 GMT Colin said:

I'm risking the wrath of Phil, but I do feel this comment requires an explanation...

Dunno what you mean matey!! DMIs and TDs are an essential part of this whole thread, and indeed part of the new circle itself. The further explanation was both needed and informative.

Just don't mention rear blinds!!!

[citysig]

Dec 18, 2009 2:14:08 GMT Colin said:

For all trains originating from Hammersmith, the first point at which a TD can be allocated is Edgware Road - which is also why the TD only appears on the DMI in platform 1, and to a lesser extent in platform 2, just before the trains arrival. When the TD appears on the platform DMI, you have literally just witnessed the signaller allocating it in Edgware Road cabin!

I'm not sure how advanced anything has got (as I haven't ventured west onto the branch lately) but there was to be a project to use Trackernet and a "simple" TD generation bit of kit in Hammersmith cabin. This certainly hasn't been introduced yet, and the project as a whole has probably ground to a halt.

The TDs at Edgware Road.

From Hammersmith, the signal operator at Edgware Road sets up the next booked service's TD at Paddington Sub - this is shown only in the cabin. Once that service leaves Paddington and reaches the junction signal (OP37) the TD "jumps" across to Praed Street Junction.

From here the train carries it's TD along to the home signal which controls which platform the train will go to (OP33/34/35). Once a clear signal is given on this signal, the TD is transferred to the platform DMI.

Before the 1990s re-signalling, OP33 used to clear as the train arrived onto Praed Street Junction - giving approximately 1 minute's notice of its arrival. Nowadays, it is slightly later, giving between 30-45 seconds notice of an arrival.

Coming from Paddington (Circle) the TD is sent automatically to Edgware Road cabin. In the case of a "Circle" TD, the signaller did nothing. It was carried automatically in the same way as the H&C TD. However, as this move is now quite rare, the signaller will now spend more of their shift manually setting up TDs than they used to.

[mrfs42]

Has anything been done to provide the Edgware Road 'box with CCTV feeds from the two Paddingtons, so the TD of approaching trains can be checked either by the blinds or (more accurately) by the set number? What about rear set numbers?

On the theme of CCTV feeds, has anything happened at Goldhawk Road yet, because I've a vague feeling that I saw a suggestion [can't for the life of me remember where] for CCTV feed into OZ, plus some form of regulating control on OZXwhatever?

[citysig]

All of those ideas were around in the early 1990s when I worked both boxes. Edgware Road does have some CCTV but don't think they have anything at Paddington yet.

As for everything else, to the best of my knowledge nothing has progressed.

[happybunny]

So how exactly does the DMI at Paddington H&C work then? It is usually pretty accurate (sometimes showing 'check front of train' but times usually correct)

[Tom]

Dec 18, 2009 10:05:22 GMT mrfs42 said:

On the theme of CCTV feeds, has anything happened at Goldhawk Road yet, because I've a vague feeling that I saw a suggestion [can't for the life of me remember where] for CCTV feed into OZ, plus some form of regulating control on OZXwhatever?

Nothing AFAIK. OZX102?

[citysig]

Dec 18, 2009 10:39:03 GMT @happybunny said:

So how exactly does the DMI at Paddington H&C work then? It is usually pretty accurate (sometimes showing 'check front of train' but times usually correct)

I'll put my hands up and say I didn't know there was one.

Given the way in which so much to do with DMIs works these days, it will be a combination of Trackernet and Connect.

Edgware Road can set the TD in the cabin at any time after the preceding service, so in theory after the last train at night, the first train can be set up. So this would not provide an accurate prediction. Hammersmith has no TD equipment. So this leaves the other pieces of kit we rely on (sometimes too heavily).

[citysig]

Dec 18, 2009 22:08:41 GMT Tom said:

Dec 18, 2009 10:05:22 GMT mrfs42 said:

On the theme of CCTV feeds, has anything happened at Goldhawk Road yet, because I've a vague feeling that I saw a suggestion [can't for the life of me remember where] for CCTV feed into OZ, plus some form of regulating control on OZXwhatever?

Nothing AFAIK. OZX102?

That's the one. And going back years ago, up the training school they always (foolishly) taught you that you never had an "X" signal as a station starting signal. I remember it clearly as just after that my first box was Hammersmith. Now of course, "X" starters are everywhere.

[metman]

Yes Northwood Hills has got one down line!

[mrfs42]

Dec 18, 2009 23:50:17 GMT @citysig said:

Dec 18, 2009 22:08:41 GMT Tom said:

Nothing AFAIK. OZX102?

That's the one. And going back years ago, up the training school they always (foolishly) taught you that you never had an "X" signal as a station starting signal. I remember it clearly as just after that my first box was Hammersmith. Now of course, "X" starters are everywhere.

OZX 102 as the starter into Hammersmith.

Been like it since before we were born! 1951.

Edit: Yes Tom, that's the one I was thinking of - I've got the dis box plate (or something of that maginitude) on my fireplace over the other side of the dyke.

[happybunny]

Well my first time going up to Edgware Road today, 3 times in total. 3 out of 3 was held at the Junction after leaving Paddington, waited for two trains to cross in front, 1 each direction, all 3 times.... I remember reading some bull about "the new service will mean less delays and more reliability at the flat junctions" (something similar can't remember exactly!)... yeah right !

The second time when I was arriving in platform 3 I noticed I had got a TD "Circle via Kings Cross" .. this TD remained until I departed (towards Wimbledon).

The third time on the way in I was called by the signaller and told to take 2 !

All in all.. bit of a shambles at Edgware Rd!

Also the turnaround time has been cut severely ! Bit tight now to go upstairs, use loo, get a hot drink from machine, and back to leave on-time !

[Colin]

Dec 20, 2009 1:18:58 GMT @happybunny said:

All in all.. bit of a shambles at Edgware Rd!

In fairness to the signallers there, they are working their socks off. It was busy enough before the changes, but with all the extra reverser's all day long, it must be hell now.

Don't forget, the frame dates from the 1920's - though how much of it is actually original I don't suppose anyone knows - and every single train movement is manually set up & signalled.

I certainly wouldn't fancy it.

[happybunny]

Dec 20, 2009 4:18:37 GMT Colin said:

Dec 20, 2009 1:18:58 GMT @happybunny said:

All in all.. bit of a shambles at Edgware Rd!

In fairness to the signallers there, they are working their socks off. It was busy enough before the changes, but with all the extra reverser's all day long, it must be hell now.

Don't forget, the frame dates from the 1920's - though how much of it is actually original I don't suppose anyone knows - and every single train movement is manually set up & signalled.

I certainly wouldn't fancy it.

Oh I know I agree that the signallers do a great job with the facilities available... my point being that Edgware Rd just cant handle this service !

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2009 1:18:58 GMT @happybunny said:

The second time when I was arriving in platform 3 I noticed I had got a TD "Circle via Kings Cross" .. this TD remained until I departed (towards Wimbledon).

I seem to recall that this TD got stuck up if it was manually set up. This would be the case if for example a train reveresed west to east.

[citysig]

Dec 20, 2009 1:18:58 GMT @happybunny said:

Well my first time going up to Edgware Road today, 3 times in total. 3 out of 3 was held at the Junction after leaving Paddington, waited for two trains to cross in front, 1 each direction, all 3 times.... I remember reading some bull about "the new service will mean less delays and more reliability at the flat junctions" (something similar can't remember exactly!)... yeah right !

The second time when I was arriving in platform 3 I noticed I had got a TD "Circle via Kings Cross" .. this TD remained until I departed (towards Wimbledon).

The third time on the way in I was called by the signaller and told to take 2 !

All in all.. bit of a shambles at Edgware Rd!

Also the turnaround time has been cut severely ! Bit tight now to go upstairs, use loo, get a hot drink from machine, and back to leave on-time !

The reliability comes about not just through good pathing through the junction (the trains passing one in each direction whilst you waited are testament to that) but also through additional running time leading towards the junctions. Your train clearly became a victim of it's own early running.

Yes (on top of everything else) the signal operator can hold you at Paddington, but they have no idea where the following train is, so although you may be held in a platform, another train may be stuck behind you.

The "Circle Line" TD on platform 3 and indeed any TD can get stuck on the DMIs at Edgware Road. When I worked there, I had a fair few tricks to get the things to un-stick. The "First Train via High St." was another one that stuck, often with different predictions on each platform.

As for getting platform 2, I'm sure you would have rather been held outside awaiting platform 3, then you could have moaned about that.

The only shambles I have seen since the start of the timetable, Happybunny, is the conduct of a handful of your colleagues last Friday evening.

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 21, 2009 19:27:15 GMT @citysig said:

........... the signal operator can hold you at Paddington, but they have no idea where the following train is,.............

Why on earth not? This is the 21st century.

[citysig]

Dec 22, 2009 7:49:14 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Why on earth not? This is the 21st century.

How many millions of things could we apply that to?

[happybunny]

With all respect you do not get the grief because platforms have been completely re-branded to 'line-specifics'. So when a District ends up in 2, its the T/Op who gets the grief and questions from the confused punters !

Again, its not the fault of the signal man, or the controller... situations like this will come up every now and again. IMO Edgware Road reversing platforms should never have been branded with circle/district line signage, it just makes it more complicated and confusing when a train is put in a different platform!

[happybunny]

Dec 21, 2009 19:27:15 GMT @citysig said:

The only shambles I have seen since the start of the timetable, Happybunny, is the conduct of a handful of your colleagues last Friday evening.

How do you mean MY colleagues ? I always thought of all operational staff, be it Supervisors, Drivers, Controllers, CSA's or Signalers (etc) as colleagues ! After all , we work TOGETHER to provide a service to the public, and look after EACH OTHER.. any sort of 'us V them' situation is not ideal.

[21146]

Dec 22, 2009 18:05:51 GMT @happybunny said:

Dec 21, 2009 19:27:15 GMT @citysig said:

The only shambles I have seen since the start of the timetable, Happybunny, is the conduct of a handful of your colleagues last Friday evening.

How do you mean MY colleagues ? I always thought of all operational staff, be it Supervisors, Drivers, Controllers, CSA's or Signalers (etc) as colleagues ! After all , we work TOGETHER to provide a service to the public, and look after EACH OTHER.. any sort of 'us V them' situation is not ideal.

Welcome to the real world!

Trains are from Mars, stations are from Venus. It's always been that way.

LU and Metronet/Tube Lines soon became 'them and us' shortly after Shadow Running begun.

Then there is the Train Operator/Signaller divide; and probably Line Controller vs. eveyone else.

And don't even mention the Service Manager/Network Operations Centre relationship!

Still, Valuing Time (yawn) will solve all this I'm sure.

[21146]

I see today's ES devotes a whole two-page spread about Edgware Road, "The Interchange From Hell". Written in semi-humorous style and quite well researched, it seems to be by someone who probably has more interest in LU history than he's prepared to admit; though it does come across a bit like 'filler' copy provided while the more serious hacks are off on holiday. Meanwhile elsewhere in the same issue it's reported that LU have had just 31 complaints over the new Circle Line service pattern, a statistic I find hard to believe. No doubt it replaced the planned "Tube Snow Chaos" splash which the weather failed to co-operate with.

[towerman]

It still made the mistake of saying that when a Circle arrived at Edgware Rd after it's run round the O/R,it then made it's way to Hammersmith direct.

[21146]

Dec 22, 2009 19:34:30 GMT towerman said:

It still made the mistake of saying that when a Circle arrived at Edgware Rd after it's run round the O/R,it then made it's way to Hammersmith direct.

I don't think LU's publicity has been clear enough on this (too much empasis on "more reliable service", "few delays" (same thing) and "more trains to Hammersmith") and the various destination blind options (on the the front of course) don't help either.

Maybe something like -

Travelling via Edgware Road when using the Circle Line?

Then remember to change trains there, EVERY TIME!

[djlynch]

Dec 22, 2009 19:49:18 GMT @21146 said:

Dec 22, 2009 19:34:30 GMT towerman said:

It still made the mistake of saying that when a Circle arrived at Edgware Rd after it's run round the O/R,it then made it's way to Hammersmith direct.

I don't think LU's publicity has been clear enough on this (too much empasis on "more reliable service", "few delays" (same thing) and "more trains to Hammersmith") and the various destination blind options (on the the front of course) don't help either.

I'd bet a fiver on all of the promotional posters, brochures, etc. being done with the intent to "sell" the changes first and actually inform second. It seems to have taken over everything that used to be informative in the last 10 years. (My favourite are when the instruction books are written this way. I've already spent hundreds on the telly, I don't need to be convinced how good it is, just tell me how to get it to work with the HDMI off my cable box, thanks.)

[citysig]

Dec 22, 2009 18:02:31 GMT @happybunny said:

With all respect you do not get the grief because platforms have been completely re-branded to 'line-specifics'. So when a District ends up in 2, its the T/Op who gets the grief and questions from the confused punters !

Again, its not the fault of the signal man, or the controller... situations like this will come up every now and again. IMO Edgware Road reversing platforms should never have been branded with circle/district line signage, it just makes it more complicated and confusing when a train is put in a different platform!

On this point, as has been said by many of us in the past, I am in agreement with you. The flexibility of the station, and indeed the flexibility we used to have in Service Control has been tied down with the signage. This goes hand in hand with the "new sin" of sending a train from Liverpool Street westbound with a "Circle Line" TD, even if that is where the train is going.

For the latter, I think over the coming weeks, the apparent discomfort will ease as everyone gets used to the new timetable. It will be back to simply reading where the train is going rather than brain-washing everyone into thinking "take the Hammersmith train."

As for platform signage, maybe in time they will change this back to how it used to be. Maybe not and over the passage of time people will simply begin to follow the trains rather than the signs.

Dec 22, 2009 18:05:51 GMT @happybunny said:

How do you mean MY colleagues ? I always thought of all operational staff, be it Supervisors, Drivers, Controllers, CSA's or Signalers (etc) as colleagues ! After all , we work TOGETHER to provide a service to the public, and look after EACH OTHER.. any sort of 'us V them' situation is not ideal.

At the risk of this turning into a row (and trust me I don't want it to head that way so take my comments in the context they are intended) let me then re-phrase what I meant. Your close working colleagues, of the same grade, residing at the H&C depots of Hammersmith, Edgware Road and Barking.

I am not about to go into details about the sort of things that occured and had to be accommodated. But when a driver is asked to go to a certain place, for which he/she has ample time to get to, and arrive back where they started to begin a larger than contracted meal relief bang on time, and they protest and claim not to have enough time to do said task, it tends to grate somewhat on the controller who is having to find a work-around whilst eating his dinner on top of a timetable. That, I'm sorry to say, is not enforcing your ethic of working TOGETHER and looking after EACH OTHER.

As I've written elsewhere, emphasis is very much on the Circle Line service, and for every driver unwilling to drive their train around the Circle Line on friday evening, I had to make another divert their train and make sure it filled the gap, whilst also ensuring they were going to get off on time - or risk yet more non-availability of staff.

It's not a personal dig at you, happybunny, and I am sure you are aware of those who let the side down. I'm also not generalising either. The large majority of drivers we are well aware still give us 110% and help make up for (and ease the pain from) those that don't.

[citysig]

Dec 22, 2009 19:02:58 GMT @21146 said:

I see today's ES devotes a whole two-page spread about Edgware Road, "The Interchange From Hell". Written in semi-humorous style and quite well researched, it seems to be by someone who probably has more interest in LU history than he's prepared to admit; though it does come across a bit like 'filler' copy provided while the more serious hacks are off on holiday. Meanwhile elsewhere in the same issue it's reported that LU have had just 31 complaints over the new Circle Line service pattern, a statistic I find hard to believe. No doubt it replaced the planned "Tube Snow Chaos" splash which the weather failed to co-operate with.

I read the first few paragraphs on the way home between Baker Street and Kings Cross, and by then I had already seen enough.

As I've said elsewhere recently about the ES, this was more than likely written months ago, and trimmed a bit here and there. Maybe the reporter travelled on one of the trail weekends.

As for complaints, regardless of what we all think, the timetable has basically been a success, with the first week statistics showing that the service as a whole operated more reliably than it has ever done. And that is not just company speak.

This evening, let's say 1830. Right time both roads of the Circle/H&C. The worst late-running was the Met Main, which only averaged 6 minutes. Just 2 weeks ago, at 1830, average "easy to sort out late-running" would be 10 or more on all trains, regardless of service. The Circles would be sorted between 1900 and 2000 - and in the process a gap of around 12-18 minutes would "run round" the Circle." Come 2100 we would more than likely still have a few minutes here and there to iron out.

The ES, as usual, is waiting for us to fall on our rears.

2009? This year has seen the Circle re-shaped and revitalised, and the ES? Well they had to start giving it away because less and less people wanted to pay for their drivel.

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 22, 2009 9:21:06 GMT @citysig said:

Dec 22, 2009 7:49:14 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Why on earth not? This is the 21st century.

How many millions of things could we apply that to?

Yes indeed, and I would start with "Why, when every bus in London is now fitted with iBus, and "Countdown" indicators began to be installed at bus stops ten yaers ago, can I not be told where my bus is unless I'm already on it?

When anyone with Internet access can access TfL's "live departure boards" page and see where the next three trains are, what excuse is there for the signalling staff at Edgware Road to not be able to know what is approaching them?

[Tom]

Have you tied using TfL's Live Departure boards for the sections Paddington (Circle) - Notting Hill Gate and/or Paddington (Suburban) - Hammersmith?

If you did, you'll get the following message: There are currently no details for this platform.
The feeds are taken from the same equipment that tells Signal Operators where the trains are. In fact, at some locations the feeds to the system were taken off the very circuits that illuminate the signal operator's diagram.

In the same way that you as a passenger cannot see the information for the areas approaching Edgware Road, nor can the Signal Operator. The information simply isn't provided.

[Chris M]

With Connect now enabled, I would have thought it a relatively minor task to collect the information and feed it to the signal cabin (at least relative to older technologies). Even if it is not accurate enough to be relied upon for safety-critical purposes, surely some information is better than none?