The New Circle

[Deleted]

To inject a new thread into the discussion -

If the line between Praed Street Junction and Edgware Road was modified, to add a second Outer Rail between the junction and the existing scissors crossover at the station, would the timetable work better by allowing simultaneous arrivals from Bishop's Road and Praed Street?

[Chris M]

I think we had a discussion along these lines in the final days of the "Circles to go thread" before that was locked for veering away from what will happen (the new service pattern) into speculation about what might happen if money was spent on infrastructure.

Even when their finances weren't as stretched as they are now, TfL showed no interest in spending more than the cost of a cup of tea to introduce the t-cup. With the lack on money now, I think it is fair to say that the impact on the t-cup of any changes to infrastructure is a purely academic discussion.

Current forum policy appears to be that anything of this nature does not belong anywhere other than on the proposals board.

[mrfs42]

If you want to save 138 seconds you would need to spend £M138.

Any further discussion in the vein of 'extra tunnelling' belongs in the Railway Proposals and Ideas Board.

[Ben]

Pity. A discussion in this thread would possibly yeald a different calibre and type of answer to one in the crack pot board.

Has any computer modeling gone on to see what a theoretical optimal solution to the SSLs interfacing in the central area would be?

[mrfs42]

You *could* do it with computers - however you input the raw data there is no means/mechanism to ensure that all established/enshrined agreements are upheld - that is why you still need the humans to produce the schedules/duty roster process.

The perfection of automation is an illusion - watch 'Brazil' for a good parody of that state.

;D ;D

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2009 0:47:21 GMT Ben said:

Pity. A discussion in this thread would possibly yeald a different calibre and type of answer to one in the crack pot board.

I've bitten the bullet!

Like just about everyone else I do have my doubts about how well the service will work.

As I see it the problem is that Edgware Road will be at the limit of its passenger handling capacity, and Praed Street Junction to Edgware Road will be near the limit of its realistic operational capacity. Seven car S Stock superimposed on the current layout won't help either.

I would expect that, come December, new line diagrams for platforms will be stick-on amendments rather than new permanent signs...

[Phil]

Nov 3, 2009 0:47:21 GMT Ben said:

Pity. A discussion in this thread would possibly yeald a different calibre and type of answer to one in the crack pot board

No Ben: you've got the Railway Ideas Proposals and Suggestions board quite wrong as we keep trying to explain . Sorry but it's only comments like yours here that refer to it as a crackpot board.


We've formulated this method of working precisely because we had several complaints about threads on operations being hijacked with 'what ifs'.

So, to repeat once more: if an idea is implementable without huge planning or cost (such as 'move this sign board....' or 'turn more trains short at....' or 'reverse this escalator in the peak') then it's operational and goes in the respective line board. If it involves advanced planning or spending any significant amounts of money, it's an Idea, so goes in that board.

We even thought of splitting RIPaS into 2 sub boards, one with proposals (subject to finance), the other with conceptual ideas (fantasy as you like to call it). But our members have always told us they hate sub-boards so RIPaS is all one board at members' request.

So PLEASE stop referring to it as a crackpot board - all that does is to devalue the several very sensible proposals put in there over time, and by implication the members that made them.

[Chris M]

Nov 3, 2009 8:06:31 GMT @a60k said:

I would expect that, come December, new line diagrams for platforms will be stick-on amendments rather than new permanent signs...

Even if it were guaranteed to be the best thing since sliced bread, I would expect that to be the case - line diagram signs at stations last tens of decades before needing to be replaced, a print run of stickets now, plus spares for a new sticker every few years has got to be cheaper than replacing all the boards.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2009 8:06:31 GMT @a60k said:

Like just about everyone else I do have my doubts about how well the service will work.

Would it be mischevious to suggest that Boris, too, has been advised that the New Circle will be a fiasco, but is keeping quiet until it all actually falls apart in its first rush hours, which will finally give him the chance he has been looking for to sweep *.*. and his acolytes out once and for all ?

[21146]

Nov 3, 2009 11:13:55 GMT @diana said:

Nov 3, 2009 8:06:31 GMT @a60k said:

Like just about everyone else I do have my doubts about how well the service will work.

Would it be mischevious to suggest that Boris, too, has been advised that the New Circle will be a fiasco, but is keeping quiet until it all actually falls apart in its first rush hours, which will finally give him the chance he has been looking for to sweep *.*. and his acolytes out once and for all ?

That's an interesting idea, the new Circle Line as the "** *******" moment which allows Boris to "do a *** *****" on another commissioner.

[Dstock7080]

Nov 3, 2009 10:49:11 GMT Chris M said:

Nov 3, 2009 8:06:31 GMT @a60k said:

I would expect that, come December, new line diagrams for platforms will be stick-on amendments rather than new permanent signs...

Even if it were guaranteed to be the best thing since sliced bread, I would expect that to be the case - line diagram signs at stations last tens of decades before needing to be replaced, a print run of stickets now, plus spares for a new sticker every few years has got to be cheaper than replacing all the boards.

The leaflet, reproduced above, does have the sentence: "You will see maps and signs changing from November in preparation for the start of the new service."

[citysig]

Nov 3, 2009 8:06:31 GMT @a60k said:

As I see it the problem is that Edgware Road will be at the limit of its passenger handling capacity, and Praed Street Junction to Edgware Road will be near the limit of its realistic operational capacity. Seven car S Stock superimposed on the current layout won't help either.

There's a lot of discussion about Edgware Road and rightly so. Everything running more or less right time and crew reliefs in place and it will be able to handle it. Even with a bit of late-running here and there, as long as crews are waiting then things will keep moving.

But. The place that gets less mention is Hammersmith. This is the real pinch point. Regardless of late-running or late crew reliefs, the place simply cannot handle much more than a 3-minute headway simply due to it's restrictive layout. So a small delayed departure of a minute or so, and maybe an additional train sent down to recover time from the main part of the Circle, and the whole area - eastbound and westbound - will grind to a halt.

[Ben]

Have any studies occured as to whether the layout could be changed to tie in with the resignalling? I mean surely the resignalling has got to be the biggest oppertunity for changing infrastructure like that? Giving a bit of extra flexibility and righting some wrongs of previous ecconomy, technological limitation and such?

[citysig]

I think there are plans somewhere once the resignalling occurs. In fact there were plans years ago to move the 2 crossovers closer together and form more of a scissors.

Unfortunately, the timetable is in 6 weeks, but the resignalling isn't ;D

[mrfs42]

I would have thought with the resignalling a significant portion of the limitations at Hammersmith would be lessened by any permutation of the following:

• trains to maintain a higher net speed entering or approaching Hm.
  
• crossover clearance (blockjoint clearance) for flank protection can be tweaked
  
• "blockjoint" clearance for opposing routes can be tweaked
  

None of those changes require alterations to the layout, merely the interlocking. However the resignalling is not quite the universal panacea; yes you would save some portion of (ISTR) 17 seconds of signalmans reaction time [1], but if the air main is going to go then you'll have slower working electric points - in effect doubling the throw/detection times. OK it is only 2 extra seconds, but it all adds up. What you gain one way you can lose another.

[1] there will be some form of TORR, won't there? Please?

[Ben]

It'll be interesting to see what actually transpires.

However it beggs the question why has it been so important to introduce the t-cup before the resignalling?

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2009 12:35:02 GMT @citysig said:

The place that gets less mention is Hammersmith. This is the real pinch point. Regardless of late-running or late crew reliefs, the place simply cannot handle much more than a 3-minute headway simply due to it's restrictive layout.

You are absolutley spot on there. hammersmith will suffer as well .... us , as drivers are going to get a certain amount of grief when we change ends at edgware road and hammersmith but its the line controllers , signallers and dmts that i feel sorry for as they are going to have the biggest headache trying to keep everything running smoothly when this all kicks off.... and not forgetting our passengers of course who in turn will vent their anger onto the station staff .

so let the chaos begin !!!!! .. i shall be hiding in my cab for most of my duty and im looking forward to getting out of even more work than i do with our current timetable ;D

[SE13]

Aren't they quoting a five minute service to Hammersmith?

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2009 10:49:11 GMT Chris M said:

Nov 3, 2009 8:06:31 GMT @a60k said:

I would expect that, come December, new line diagrams for platforms will be stick-on amendments rather than new permanent signs...

Even if it were guaranteed to be the best thing since sliced bread, I would expect that to be the case - line diagram signs at stations last tens of decades before needing to be replaced, a print run of stickets now, plus spares for a new sticker every few years has got to be cheaper than replacing all the boards.

To be fair, yes, there are quite a number of old signs dotted around the system with patches because it's cheap - I'm sure at least one station still has Barbican plated over Aldersgate!

This is a major change though, and when the Jubilee line extension opened I'm sure most of the line diagrams in stations were replaced with new permanent ones pretty much immediately. Likewise on the DLR new signs were in place for the City Airport/Woolwich extension before it opened, with temporary stickers covering it up.

A new line diagram at Wood Lane for example is going to need more than a sticker over a part of it - the entire diagram will change.

The point I'm trying to make is that how quickly new permanent signs are or are not put up, and how many stickers are used to amend existing signs, might be some indication of how much confidence management has in the extension being permanent!

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2009 12:35:02 GMT @citysig said:

Nov 3, 2009 8:06:31 GMT @a60k said:

As I see it the problem is that Edgware Road will be at the limit of its passenger handling capacity, and Praed Street Junction to Edgware Road will be near the limit of its realistic operational capacity. Seven car S Stock superimposed on the current layout won't help either.

There's a lot of discussion about Edgware Road and rightly so. Everything running more or less right time and crew reliefs in place and it will be able to handle it. Even with a bit of late-running here and there, as long as crews are waiting then things will keep moving.

But. The place that gets less mention is Hammersmith. This is the real pinch point. Regardless of late-running or late crew reliefs, the place simply cannot handle much more than a 3-minute headway simply due to it's restrictive layout. So a small delayed departure of a minute or so, and maybe an additional train sent down to recover time from the main part of the Circle, and the whole area - eastbound and westbound - will grind to a halt.

Very good point - I'd overlooked the operational awkwardness of Hammersmith. And looking forward, presumably with S Stock in 7 car formation the stopping point will need to move closer to the buffers? If so, would this mean perhaps a combination of a more cautious approach and a longer train adding perhaps 20-30 seconds to the arrival time?

[slugabed]

Nov 3, 2009 11:50:52 GMT Dstock7080 said:

"You will see maps and signs changing from November in preparation for the start of the new service."

Does this mean that there will be a new folding tube map edition out soon? Or is it already available?

[uzairjubilee]

Nov 3, 2009 18:49:43 GMT slugabed said:

Nov 3, 2009 11:50:52 GMT Dstock7080 said:

"You will see maps and signs changing from November in preparation for the start of the new service."

Does this mean that there will be a new folding tube map edition out soon? Or is it already available?

I image it will be in the map in which they reinstate the Thames. The new maps were too be issued in December I think.

[slugabed]

Nov 3, 2009 18:56:08 GMT uzairjubilee said:

Nov 3, 2009 18:49:43 GMT slugabed said:

Does this mean that there will be a new folding tube map edition out soon? Or is it already available?

I image it will be in the map in which they reinstate the Thames. The new maps were too be issued in December I think.

Thanks Uzair,that makes a lot of sense.

[citysig]

Nov 3, 2009 15:30:51 GMT SE13 said:

Aren't they quoting a five minute service to Hammersmith?

It will be. On both roads. So any additional trains basically won't fit.

Anyone unfamiliar with the layout (there must be a diagram somewhere here) this is a (very) basic summary

Platforms------/ to E/B-------\ from W/B-----------Gold.Rd.

And basically only one train can move at any one time.

[Ben]

On the matter of signs, the enamel line diagram signs at Finchley Road up until the refurb a couple years back had silver enamel circles over the former Bakerloo interchanges at Wembley and Finchley. So sometimes changes don't come for decades.

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 3, 2009 19:06:51 GMT @citysig said:

Nov 3, 2009 15:30:51 GMT SE13 said:

Aren't they quoting a five minute service to Hammersmith?

And basically only one train can move at any one time.

It's a while since I've been there, but surely one train can leave platform 1 as another arrives at No 2 or 3 (if I've got the numbering the right way round)

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 3, 2009 18:02:43 GMT @a60k said:

To be fair, yes, there are quite a number of old signs dotted around the system with patches because it's cheap - I'm sure at least one station still has Barbican plated over Aldersgate!

This is a major change though.

A new line diagram at Wood Lane for example is going to need more than a sticker over a part of it - the entire diagram will change.

From stations on the H&C proper, (i.e. west of Paddington) in practice few people will want to travel further than Aldgate, so a patch at Liverpool Street may be all that's required to show the two routes diverge there. Westbound there will be no obvious difference at all except a doubling of frequency.

On the north side of the circle, the minimum needed to do westbound is blank off the Circle beyond Edgware Road. Eastbound there will be no difference.

On the south and west sides of the circle, all you need to do is blank off everything beyond Edgware Road in either direction - no-one starting west of Tower Hill is likely to want to go beyond Edgware Road in the anticlockwise dirction, so adding it to the diagram at these stations is unnecessary.

I'm sure somewhere I've recently seen the H&C still shown as (Metropolitan) purple on a station diagram.

[gantshill]

Euston Square this afternoon had new line diagram signs for the westbound/anti-clockwise platform, both at the top of the stairs, and on the platform itself. It showed the Circle and H&C lines going to Hammersmith, and a change at Edgware Road for the Circle line around to St James Park.

It made me wonder if there are journeys half-way round the circle that will now be quicker in the other direction to avoid an unavoidable change at Edgware Road?

Sorry - I don't have a camera with me, so no photos.

[citysig]

Nov 3, 2009 19:17:00 GMT norbitonflyer said:

It's a while since I've been there, but surely one train can leave platform 1 as another arrives at No 2 or 3 (if I've got the numbering the right way round)

That's correct, and that is also one of the very few times 2 trains can move simultaneously between Goldhawk Road and Hammersmith.

One other time is to/from the depot to/from platform 3 or 24 siding (adjacent platform 3) at the same time as a train arrives/departs platforms 1 or 2.

So that's bascially 1 train in every 3 won't have to wait for something else to clear before it can move ;D

[21146]

I alighted at Paddington (Suburban) today. Noted nothing changed on the platform area apart from new "Up" and "No Entry" pictogram hanging signs installed over the (still) only functional staircase. Upstairs, the former NSE ticket office, which I think was later a sort of enquiry point, is now closed and hoarded off. At the FGW gateline there are 4 ticket machines - 2 FGW ones, and 2 LUL Q-busters, both of which only take cards and are out-of-service, indeed for some time it seems as they have pre-printed stickers to this effect on them. Looks like a lot of planning's going on here doesn't it?