Unique features of the Bakerloo

[harlesden]

1. Passenger trains in normal service pass through a shed (Queens Park).
2. The only deep level line with a terminus in Zone 1 (Elephant & Castle)
3. Three timetabled termination/reversing points at the northern end (Harrow & Wealdstone, Stonebridge Park, Queens Park)
4. The basic service (Elephant - Queens Park) never comes into contact with NR lines while the whole of the service north of Queens Park shares the NR line.
5. The line serves three NR termini that are NOT linked by the Circle Line. (Waterloo, Paddington, Marylebone)
6. The only line to have lost an entire branch (Baker Street-Stanmore 1979).
7. Until 1917, the Bakerloo operated with the polarity of the conductor rails reversed.
8. The only line with a crossover point on exclusively NR lines.
9. The only line once operated jointly with 38ts and 72ts before reverting for a time (1979-83) to 38ts only.
and finally
The only line still using stock displaced from another line (72ts from the Jubilee Line).

[railtechnician]

Mmm! Also the only Underground line that I have ever heard its own Line Controller refer to as "The Toy Railway" as it was so easy to operate.

[harlesden]

A few months ago I did hear the Bakerloo referred to in somebody's mobile phone conversation as the sh** coloured line

[mrfs42]

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

7. Until 1917, the Bakerloo operated with the polarity of the conductor rails reversed.

Not so - the STN commencing Saturday 11th December 1915 reads:

'After close of traffic on Saturday night next (11th instant) the polarity of the Conductor Rails on the Bakerloo Line will be reversed; the outside rail becoming positive and the 4-foot rail negative. The Conditions will then agree with the arrangements on the other Electrical Railwys of London having the fourth rail. This also applies to the section of the London and North Western Railway between Queens Park and Willesden new station, over which the Bakerloo trains run.

During Saturday night the Conductor Rails will be alive as may ne necessary for making tests, and for this purpose trains may be expected to run on each road during the night.'

[Deleted]

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

2. The only deep level line with a terminus in Zone 1 (Elephant & Castle)

Waterloo and City?

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

6. The only line to have lost an entire branch (Baker Street-Stanmore 1979)..

I believe the Metropolitan had Stanmore before Bakerloo.

[superteacher]

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

3. Three timetabled termination/reversing points at the northern end (Harrow & Wealdstone, Stonebridge Park, Queens Park)
)

The Central line has timetabled reversers at Epping, Debden and Loughton (all on the same branch)

Central line - West Ruislip, Ruilsip Gardens and Northolt (all on the same branch).

Piccadilly line - Cockfosters, Oakwood, Arnos Grove (plus Wood Green, although I don't think there are currently any timetabled reversers there).

[Chris M]

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

5. The line serves three NR termini that are NOT linked by the Circle Line. (Waterloo, Paddington, Marylebone)

The Charing Cross branch of the Northern serves Waterloo, Charing Cross and Euston.
The Bank branch of the Northern serves Kings Cross, Moorgate, and London Bridge.

[Chris M]

Aug 4, 2010 9:52:15 GMT @eirikho said:

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

6. The only line to have lost an entire branch (Baker Street-Stanmore 1979)..

I believe the Metropolitan had Stanmore before Bakerloo.

It did.
The District has also lost the Hounslow and Uxbridge branches to the Piccadilly.
The Met lost the Hammersmith and Barking branches to the H&C.

[rayb]

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

5. The line serves three NR termini that are NOT linked by the Circle Line. (Waterloo, Paddington, Marylebone)

AFAIK, Paddington still has the Circle going through it....

[Chris M]

yes, but Marylebone and Waterloo don't so it's correct to say that Paddington is not linked to the others by the Circle Line (I had to read it twice though!).

In addition to the Northern (see my post above) the Central Line also shares this feature, serving Liverpool Street, Stratford and Greenford, all of which are termini for NR lines (Stratford due to London Overground, but some NXEA services also terminate there)

[Deleted]

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

3. Three timetabled termination/reversing points at the northern end (Harrow & Wealdstone, Stonebridge Park, Queens Park)

Jubilee line has Stanmore, Wembley Park, and Willesden Green (there is also West Hampstead - but I think it is not timetabled).

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

5. The line serves three NR termini that are NOT linked by the Circle Line. (Waterloo, Paddington, Marylebone)

Paddington is on the Circle line (twice ). So it is only two unlinked NR termini - just like Jubilee line that serves Waterloo and London Bridge (or Northern line - that service Waterloo, London Bridge, and Euston).

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

6. The only line to have lost an entire branch (Baker Street-Stanmore 1979).

Oh, there's a lot of examples of that (District / Uxbridge, District / Hounslow, Metropolitan / Stanmore).

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

8. The only line with a crossover point on exclusively NR lines.

District to Richmond?

[Oracle]

Can it be argued that the District has a crossover on NR lines south of the boundary at Wimbledon Park?

The Picc of course lost the Aldwych branch, the DR the South Acton one (stretching), Central the Ongar 'branch', ELL the Shoreditch branch (again stretching).

The Bakerloo did of course have an in-tunnel scissors X-over at Piccadilly Circus, now reduced to a simple x-over. Elephant & Castle's is still there of course!

The Bakerloo is unique in that its trains can run on NR with no official LU passenger map routing, to Kilburn High Road.

[superteacher]

In addition to Stanmore, Wembley Park and Willesden Green, trains can also terminate at Canons Park and go directly into Stanmore sidings (and there are trains timetabled to do this). As for West Hampstead, I'm sure there is one train per day timetabled to use it, or at least there used to be!

[harlesden]

I thought the crossover was north of Kilburn High Road. There is no reason for a Bakerloo train to actually enter Kilburn High Road station and therefore no provision for such a movement

[superteacher]

Aug 4, 2010 11:24:24 GMT @harlesden said:

I thought the crossover was north of Kilburn High Road. There is no reason for a Bakerloo train to actually enter Kilburn High Road station and therefore no provision for such a movement

DOn't they reverse south to north in the platform?

[Oracle]

They reverse Up to Down, or SB to NB in the Up/SB platform. There is no 4th rail in the Down/NB platform. The crossover is a trailing one north of the station.

[Deleted]

Aug 4, 2010 8:57:30 GMT mrfs42 said:

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

7. Until 1917, the Bakerloo operated with the polarity of the conductor rails reversed.

Not so - the STN commencing Saturday 11th December 1915 reads:

'After close of traffic on Saturday night next (11th instant) the polarity of the Conductor Rails on the Bakerloo Line will be reversed; the outside rail becoming positive and the 4-foot rail negative. The Conditions will then agree with the arrangements on the other Electrical Railwys of London having the fourth rail. This also applies to the section of the London and North Western Railway between Queens Park New Station and Willesden New Station, over which the Bakerloo trains run.

During Saturday night the Conductor Rails will be alive as may ne necessary for making tests, and for this purpose trains may be expected to run on each road during the night.'

With reference to the LNWR's, Instructions in connection with the working of Electric Trains between Queens Park New Station and Willesden New Station, April 1915.

On and from a date early in May, of which due notice will be given, certain of the Bakerloo Company's trains from Elephant & Castle will be extended over these lines between Queens Park New Station and Willesden New Station Bay Lines. For particulars of timings, see special Time Tables.
The trains will be provided and will be fully staffed by the London Electric Railway Company, who will also provide the necessary power from their sub-station at Kilburn Park.

It goes on to mention the current rails arrangements, as we know them today, with 3rd positive and 4th negative, though there is also an amendment stuck over as follows:

Note: from the opening date, and as a temporary arrangement untill further notice, on this section of the line the positive rail will be in the centre of the four-foot way and the negative rail outside the running rail.

So this arrangement lasted from at least Apr to Dec 1915.

[elo10538]

If we're talking about lines with a reversal of polarity of the conductor rails, wasn't the Central Line built third rail, centre positive rail and return through the running rails? IIRC this was changed just prior to the Second World War, when the Central gained a fourth rail and the polarity then fell into line with the rest of the combine.

[superteacher]

The Bakerloo is also unique in that the stock runs "wrong way round", with the train being deliberately put on that way. There is a reason, but I've forgotten what it is.

[Chris M]

Aug 4, 2010 13:13:36 GMT elo10538 said:

If we're talking about lines with a reversal of polarity of the conductor rails, wasn't the Central Line built third rail, centre positive rail and return through the running rails? IIRC this was changed just prior to the Second World War, when the Central gained a fourth rail and the polarity then fell into line with the rest of the combine.

IIRC, the CSLR had running-rail return originally, the juice rail was between the running rails but off-set to one side.

[mikebuzz]

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:08 GMT @harlesden said:

6. The only line to have lost an entire branch (Baker Street-Stanmore 1979).

Metropolitan - Brill, Addison Road, New Cross
Northern - Finsbury Park
District - New Cross Gate

[mrfs42]

Aug 4, 2010 13:33:00 GMT Chris M said:

Aug 4, 2010 13:13:36 GMT elo10538 said:

If we're talking about lines with a reversal of polarity of the conductor rails, wasn't the Central Line built third rail, centre positive rail and return through the running rails? IIRC this was changed just prior to the Second World War, when the Central gained a fourth rail and the polarity then fell into line with the rest of the combine.

IIRC, the CSLR had running-rail return originally, the juice rail was between the running rails but off-set to one side.

Yes 'tis true: you can see the collector flaps on the headstocks of the engines.

Not forgetting to mention the GN&C which had both juice rails outside the four foot.

[ruislip]

Aug 4, 2010 10:01:07 GMT superteacher said:

Piccadilly line - Cockfosters, Oakwood, Arnos Grove (plus Wood Green, although I don't think there are currently any timetabled reversers there).

And don't forget Uxbridge, Ruislip, and Rayners Lane on the Uxbridge branch.

[Deleted]

Only line to share a BR depot (Croxley Green) on a line not served by a Underground service - The Croxley Green Branch!

Xerces Fobe

[Deleted]

Aug 4, 2010 13:18:28 GMT superteacher said:

The Bakerloo is also unique in that the stock runs "wrong way round", with the train being deliberately put on that way. There is a reason, but I've forgotten what it is.

According to Brian Hardy's "London Undergound Rolling Stock" (15th/2002 version), pg 16:
"[..]1972 MkI Stock operates 'wrong way round', in that the 'D' ends face north and the 'A' ends face south. This is to allow shunting operations in Stonebridge Park depot to be carried out from a middle (33xx) motor car rather than from an UNDM car."

[andypurk]

Aug 4, 2010 11:24:24 GMT @harlesden said:

I thought the crossover was north of Kilburn High Road. There is no reason for a Bakerloo train to actually enter Kilburn High Road station and therefore no provision for such a movement

Despite the crossover being halfway between Queen's Park and Kilburn High Road, trains (both LO and Bakerloo) reverse in the southbound platform at the latter and that is where the manoeuvre is signalled. The 4th rail extends all the way into the station and is occasionally used during engineering works to maintain a Bakerloo service north of Queens Park.

In fact, this might be another 'claim to fame', as the Bakerloo is the only line which occasionally runs a passenger service to a station not on its normal route (and not even on a LU line).

[Deleted]

Further to erikhO's note -

.... and thereby reducing the collision liklihood by unfamiliar shunting with UNDMs!

[norbitonflyer]

Aug 4, 2010 12:39:42 GMT @lnwrelectric said:

'After close of traffic on Saturday night next (11th instant) the polarity of the Conductor Rails on the Bakerloo Line will be reversed;

How did this work then? were all the trains re-wired overnight, or did they have to be driven in reverse gear (so to speak) during the transitional period to compensate for the polarity having been reversed?

I appreciate that the electrification system is a little more sophisticated than a Hornby Dublo, but presumably the trains do notice which way the d.c is running!

Oh,
9. the Northern Line also ran 1972mk2 and 1938 stock together, and later ran 1938 stock again, although in both periods other stocks were also running (1956/59/72Mk1)

It's not the only line to run 1972 stock - there is some on the Victoria Line, although it is masquerading as "inner" DMs of 1967 stock

[Chris M]

Aug 4, 2010 17:59:12 GMT andypurk said:

In fact, this might be another 'claim to fame', as the Bakerloo is the only line which occasionally runs a passenger service to a station not on its normal route (and not even on a LU line).

I thought the Bakerloo moves to Kilburn High Road were always ourt of service from Queen's Park?

The District and Piccadilly lines both occasionally run services onto each other's lines when a wrong stick is taken at Hangar Lane Junction.
I recall one District Line driver on here saying that during one period of disruption they'd taken their D stock one signal length onto the NLL north of Gunnersbury (at the controller's direction). I'm fairly sure they'd detrained but I'm not 100% certain of this (nor can I remember which driver it was - it was a few years ago)

Also, don't forget that Circle and Hammersmith and City Line trains are regularly operate scheduled passenger services over the other line's track

The Bakerloo might be the only line to reverse trains in a National Rail only platform, but I'm not certain whether Met trains serve platform 2 at Amersham and/or whether they can reverse off it?

[harlesden]

Well, I thought I knew a little bit about the Bakerloo - hence the OP - but I've learned a lot today. Thanks all. Just one question. How far down the Piccadilly Hounslow branch could today's District stock safely go? I would say Northfields.