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Post by alfie on May 14, 2012 20:11:14 GMT
The other day, I took a trip into the Bank headshunt. The PSA came over to say hello, and he was not very pleased with my bad behaviour. He said it's not allowed, and I very much believe him, but..
I want to make absolutely sure I'm not allowed in there, so is it true?
If it isn't allowed, why don't they de-train at Bank?
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Post by superteacher on May 14, 2012 20:24:56 GMT
The other day, I took a trip into the Bank headshunt. The PSA came over to say hello, and he was not very pleased with my bad behaviour. He said it's not allowed, and I very much believe him, but.. I want to make absolutely sure I'm not allowed in there, so is it true? If it isn't allowed, why don't they de-train at Bank? No you're not allowed in there! Why would you be? It's just like any other siding! |
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Post by alfie on May 14, 2012 20:26:19 GMT
Fair enough. I thought there might be some reasoning to do with it having walkways and being fully automatic, but I'm wrong. Do you know why they don't detrain there then?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 14, 2012 20:31:24 GMT
Hmmm, I think it's a little bit like going around the Kennington Loop; if they were that worried about passengers traversing the line their procedures would be a little more robust.
I suspect the Bank Headshunt is a little bit "tut tut, naughty Alfie".
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Post by alfie on May 14, 2012 20:35:54 GMT
PSA said it was a bit more than that, that I'd be in big trouble if I ever did it again.
Here's a thought: could you be P/Fared for doing the Kennington Loop on a platform ticket? I s'pose so, as you've left the platform..
Have found out: NOT VALID IN TRAINS.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 14, 2012 20:42:56 GMT
Hmmm, "a bit more than that" and "big trouble" suggests that there should be a sign warning you, or that you would need to be particularly devious in order to do it; eg. if you realised you'd left your phone on the seat and jumped back on at the last minute you would still be detected, if you were curled up under the seat however....
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Post by Deep Level on May 14, 2012 20:49:32 GMT
I'm sorry but I do not understand what you mean Alfie. Passengers are not allowed into the Bank Headshunt due to it 1) being a siding and 2) it being underneath (or close enough) to the Bank of England (or so I've been told). Although I do seem to have vague memories of this not being the case when I was a child (or that could've been a childhood dream).
Trains are de-trained at Bank, platform 10.
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Post by alfie on May 14, 2012 20:54:26 GMT
Passengers are not allowed into the Bank Headshunt due to it 1) being a siding and 2) it being underneath (or close enough) to the Bank of England (or so I've been told). Trains are de-trained at Bank, platform 10. Aye, been told by superteacher and you now. Shan't be visiting again. Since when where they? Certainly, not in the many trips I've made. |
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Post by Deep Level on May 14, 2012 21:04:45 GMT
Am I missing something here?  Every trip I've ever made to Bank on the DLR (and I used to make a lot when I was younger and obsessed with the DLR ;D) trains are always de-train on Platform 10 and then pick up again on Platform 9. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 21:06:36 GMT
How long is the headshunt after Bank station ? Is there room enough to stable one train while others still can shunt from arrival platform to departure one ?
If yes, there was a risk to be blocked under there until next peak !
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Post by alfie on May 14, 2012 21:15:00 GMT
Pr'haps every time I bundle down they conveniently forget to It's been 'Everybody get off, I don't want you on here, go on buggar off, no sir the next train leaves from over there, like it always has' and close the doors when I've been there. (and on my excursion, an RTD when ready to leave, and another when the points have switched for Platform 9) |
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Post by Deep Level on May 14, 2012 21:40:29 GMT
I'm sorry you've lost me, didn't you just confirm what I just said in your post?
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Post by revupminster on May 14, 2012 21:44:19 GMT
If it was the underground it would be because passengers cannot travel past a shunt signal because technically the route is only locked by a colour light signal. The DLR is generally bi-diirectional I think so they probably have different rules.
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Post by causton on May 14, 2012 23:08:49 GMT
Oh don't tempt me - the Kennington loop was bad enough!  Nah, not with the PSA wandering about... when I went into the Kennington loop there was a passenger halfway down my carriage who obviously didn't realise the rest of us weren't in the train purely for transport... as he got off at the next station, Kennington, and was so bemused |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 23:17:42 GMT
Im sure the rules were changed for the Underground atleast that passengers could travel into sidigns and beyond shunt signals without problem?
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Post by andypurk on May 15, 2012 0:00:32 GMT
Im sure the rules were changed for the Underground atleast that passengers could travel into sidigns and beyond shunt signals without problem? I think that the change was more the LU staff no longer have to check that the train is empty before it enters some sidings. The change allows platforms to be cleared of terminating trains more quickly and so reduces some delays (as is seen at Harrow & Wealdstone). Passengers are still not supposed to stay on the train during such maneuvers. |
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Post by grahamhewett on May 15, 2012 8:53:14 GMT
Then there is the (probably true) story about the Paris Metro driver who was in the habit of leaving the train to coast into the headshunt and exiting to the platform to await the rear cab to come alongside, at which point he reboarded it and applied the brake. This saved walking down the length of the train. Only one day, the rear cab was locked..
Graham H
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 15, 2012 12:49:30 GMT
If it was the underground But its not..... The DLR is generally bi-diirectional I think so they probably have different rules. Very different rules - mentioning LU's rules is confusing the discussion TBH, but seeing as it's now been brought up...... Im sure the rules were changed for the Underground atleast that passengers could travel into sidigns and beyond shunt signals without problem? Yes, but only in certain circumstances. Those circumstances would be something like a medical emergency, where it may be beneficial to have the train detrained and moved to a siding, or colour light signals failing but a through route using shunts is available.......that sort of thing. I think that the change was more the LU staff no longer have to check that the train is empty before it enters some sidings. The change allows platforms to be cleared of terminating trains more quickly and so reduces some delays (as is seen at Harrow & Wealdstone). Passengers are still not supposed to stay on the train during such maneuvers. The only part of what you said that is correct is the last sentance. The new procedure does not by-pass the requirement to physically check trains - that's actually an HMRI enforced requirement - there are some local exceptions; Kennington being the more well known one. As I state above, the new procedure which allows passengers to be carried over shunt moves is only for use in very specific out of the ordinary circumstances. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 13:07:55 GMT
There are other locations (harrow and wealdstone is one), where the train operator announces that the train is out of service then can depart without checking the cars are empty. I understand that barriers are fitted between the cars at the communicating doors.
There are also procedures now in OSN 101 that permit passengers to be carried via shunt signals without points needing to be secured, when authorised by the Service Manager. This must not be used in the case of non compliant passengers.
Also regards railways nowadays. It is on the onus of the operator to asses something as safe not the ORR.
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Post by andypurk on May 15, 2012 14:44:41 GMT
If it was the underground But its not..... Very different rules - mentioning LU's rules is confusing the discussion TBH, but seeing as it's now been brought up...... Yes, but only in certain circumstances. Those circumstances would be something like a medical emergency, where it may be beneficial to have the train detrained and moved to a siding, or colour light signals failing but a through route using shunts is available.......that sort of thing. I think that the change was more the LU staff no longer have to check that the train is empty before it enters some sidings. The change allows platforms to be cleared of terminating trains more quickly and so reduces some delays (as is seen at Harrow & Wealdstone). Passengers are still not supposed to stay on the train during such maneuvers. The only part of what you said that is correct is the last sentance. The new procedure does not by-pass the requirement to physically check trains - that's actually an HMRI enforced requirement - there are some local exceptions; Kennington being the more well known one. With respect, I think that you are misinformed. As there are several locations where train checking is no longer undertaken when it was in the recent past. This must have been accompanied by a change in the rules. At a similar time to the requirement being relaxed for Kennington Loop, it was also relaxed at several above ground locations on the Bakerloo (and probably other locations which I am unfamiliar with). Sure HMRI may have had to give permission for the change to procedures, but it will have been upto LU to ask for it. Which is why I said that passengers are still not supposed to be on the train. |
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Post by revupminster on May 15, 2012 16:43:38 GMT
Barking sidings which is fully signalled by shunt signals but passengers are still not allowed through during engineering works and are made to bus to Upney to pick up an eastbound train that has reversed at Barking and passed through the sidings. And I am sure they still have staff to detrain passengers for trains going out of service on the eastbound. Incidently because the reception road is so long trains can enter the siding at line speed.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 18:04:21 GMT
Barking sidings which is fully signalled by shunt signals but passengers are still not allowed through during engineering works and are made to bus to Upney to pick up an eastbound train that has reversed at Barking and passed through the sidings. And I am sure they still have staff to detrain passengers for trains going out of service on the eastbound. Incidently because the reception road is so long trains can enter the siding at line speed. If it is Signalled by shunt signals then passengers cannot ordinarily be carried. A shunt signal displaying a proceed aspect advises that this can be passed but that the line may be blocked. You should therefore not travel at a line speed! There are a few places still on LU where shunt signals can be cleared with section ahead being occupied. Should passengers need to be carried past a shunt signal, this must be authorised by the Service Manager. The signal operator must then instruct the train operator to pass the signal when displaying a proceed aspect. If the signal operator MUST monitor the train through the section and if notices anything unusual/wrong then the movement must be stopped. This obviously therefore is not for every train but is designed for example the wrong road shunt signal on the Cromwell Curve to manage a train stuck between stations there with customers on rather than the RDO (at the time) having to make and record a risk assessment and the time required to do so. On the District line trains must still be checked to ensure there are no customers present when detraining. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 15, 2012 18:08:35 GMT
With respect, I think that you are misinformed. As there are several locations where train checking is no longer undertaken when it was in the recent past. This must have been accompanied by a change in the rules. With equal respect I would ask that you read what I actually wrote, which included the gem "there are some local exceptions". There has been no generic change in the rules with regard to physical train checking. I should know, I do drive the things!! Where there is a local exception, recent change or not, it will of course have gone through the necessary machinery to allow it to happen, and the local staff affected will have been briefed accordingly. Where there is no local exception, the general rule that is still in place applies. Barking sidings which is fully signalled by shunt signals but passengers are still not allowed through during engineering works and are made to bus to Upney to pick up an eastbound train that has reversed at Barking and passed through the sidings. And I am sure they still have staff to detrain passengers for trains going out of service on the eastbound. That is because, as I said above, the new procedure is only for use in certain limited circumstances - planned engineering works is not covered and that is not why it exists. Incidently because the reception road is so long trains can enter the siding at line speed. Eh?!! Shunt signals most certainly do not allow any moves to be made at line speed - unless someone can demonstrate with a rule book section number that I'm wrong. At Barking in particular, the reception road from the eastbound has a signed permanent speed restriction of 10 mph!!   Admin Comment: Now as interesting at this discussion is folks, this thread has effectively been hijacked. It is in the DLR area and the OP was about a DLR subject...... |
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Post by alfie on May 15, 2012 18:16:26 GMT
I'm sorry you've lost me, didn't you just confirm what I just said in your post? I'd call de-training physically going through all the cars instead of shouting at everybody to get off. I suppose this is one of those local exceptions; I think that the change was more the LU staff no longer have to check that the train is empty before it enters some sidings. The change allows platforms to be cleared of terminating trains more quickly and so reduces some delays (as is seen at Harrow & Wealdstone). Passengers are still not supposed to stay on the train during such maneuvers. The only part of what you said that is correct is the last sentance. The new procedure does not by-pass the requirement to physically check trains - that's actually an HMRI enforced requirement - there are some local exceptions; Kennington being the more well known one. Am I right? Or Barking (haha so funny) up the wrong tree.. Hmm, I probably am, it isn't the Underground.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 19:20:01 GMT
DLR staff at Bank have not de-trained since 2007.
Can you imagine the DLR running as often as it does to Bank if they were tipping out a 3 unit/6 car train every 2 minutes?!
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Post by alfie on May 15, 2012 19:31:44 GMT
tipping out a 3 unit/6 car train every 2 minutes?! Suppose that's what I should have said, but is it really every 2 minutes?! |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 19:47:08 GMT
The DLR would have a different set of rules from London Underground ( as does NR).
If being carried over into the head shunt was such a no- no then you would expect better methods used to make sure the train is empty. So presumably either it is not a serious no-no or the staff never checked the train properly.
Just a thought. If somebody deliberately hid/ jumped back on a train that was being detrained for the purpose of track bashing or similar, would that be a Bye law offence?
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Post by andypurk on May 15, 2012 23:22:17 GMT
With respect, I think that you are misinformed. As there are several locations where train checking is no longer undertaken when it was in the recent past. This must have been accompanied by a change in the rules. With equal respect I would ask that you read what I actually wrote, which included the gem "there are some local exceptions". And if you read what i originally wrote, this doesn't disagree with this statement. But that is the important difference. There used to be NO exceptions to checking trains before passing a shunt signal but now there are. I agree, but I still I think that I had to challenge your disagreement with what I wrote. I don't think that the details are as different as you made out. The LU part of the discussion can always be moved if necessary. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2012 12:52:34 GMT
I boarded a train sometime last week and discovered someone who had obviously slept right through the Bank headshunt. Was still asleep at East India.
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Post by phillw48 on May 24, 2012 17:43:15 GMT
I boarded a train sometime last week and discovered someone who had obviously slept right through the Bank headshunt. Was still asleep at East India. I would have loved to see the expression on his face when he woke up. ;D |
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