Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 15:58:05 GMT
As of 1200 today the first section of the Northern line (High Barnet to West Finchley) is now working under TBTC signalling. The first step in the Northern line upgrade.
(sorry I couldn't edit the previous thread on this topic).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 16:03:50 GMT
Just for this afternoon, or full weekday service?
|
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 17, 2013 16:13:54 GMT
Just for this afternoon, or full weekday service? Full weekday service. |
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Feb 17, 2013 17:53:37 GMT
And so it begins. Let's hope that it's a bit less problematic than when the Jubilee line moved over to TBTC!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 19:18:25 GMT
 So far so good. |
|
|
|
Post by causton on Feb 17, 2013 19:25:22 GMT
*crosses fingers* Now that's something new for me to go and see  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 20:00:10 GMT
As of 1200 today the first section of the Northern line (High Barnet to West Finchley) is now working under TBTC signalling. The first step in the Northern line upgrade.
(sorry I couldn't edit the previous thread on this topic). Wow! Having lived painfully and patiently through the interminable Jubilee upgrade, and again through the Met, I'm gobsmacked at the speed and apparent smoothness of the Northern - seems only yesterday the process was begun - there again I'm not a Northern regular. A question - what is the status of the power upgrade and the 1995 stock accleration profile? It's drastically slugged, much more so than was the 1996 Jubilee stock, and my understanding is that it will be brought up to speed along with TBTC. Is there any improvement at High Barnet - West Finchley, and does anybody know when the stock will finally reach its full performance potential? |
|
|
|
Post by londonstuff on Feb 17, 2013 20:40:45 GMT
*crosses fingers* Now that's something new for me to go and see Yes, I'll probably go up there tomorrow to take a few photos of the blue migration signals and all the others covered with bin bags (presumably) - though others have probably already photographed it. I wonder if it's as jolty as the Jubilee? (And completely off-topic, have the Jub assets been removed yet are are they all still in-situ?) Edit: A few bits from Twitter today (and I see v5 still doesn't support embeddable tweets): The first automatic train in passenger service on the northern line ever! Memorable moment? http://instagr.am/p/V1ObwATgB4/ couple of drivers I've spoken to said it has run better than expected, though doing 40 in an ex 15mph section was scary!
apparently if the train is routed to plat 1, it's straight in at 40. For plats 2 and 3, it slows down to 10 over the points.
The Northern line’s first day on NMA1 ATO went well, at least during my shift. Hope it continues.
It wasn’t ATO that was the problem; getting the trains out of HBT this morning was causing headaches for all concerned.
Disconcerting. Kept looking out for signals that weren’t there. Acceleration is much better. Fast.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 21:09:29 GMT
Most of the Jub assets are still there, although many signal identification plates have been removed.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Feb 17, 2013 21:31:20 GMT
So was it in ATO? When the Jub was being converted, they were still controlled by the train op in TBTC.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2013 23:36:44 GMT
As a regular on this section, I'll see if its making any noticeable difference over the next couple of weeks (N.B. I know zero about signalling, so can only really comment on improvements to the service).
Hopefully this will allow quicker turnarounds, preventing the situation where trains frequently have to wait for a platform to become available at the last signal outside High Barnet.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 1:15:02 GMT
As a regular on this section, I'll see if its making any noticeable difference over the next couple of weeks (N.B. I know zero about signalling, so can only really comment on improvements to the service). Hopefully this will allow quicker turnarounds, preventing the situation where trains frequently have to wait for a platform to become available at the last signal outside High Barnet. Unlikely unless the timetable is changed - waiting outside a terminus a fact of life on most metro systems. TBTC may slightly decrease crossover occupation times, maybe reducing the wait marginally. However, trains may also arrive at the junction home signal sooner due to improved driving performance, increasing the wait. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 5:51:50 GMT
Wow! Having lived painfully and patiently through the interminable Jubilee upgrade, and again through the Met, I'm gobsmacked at the speed and apparent smoothness of the Northern - seems only yesterday the process was begun - there again I'm not a Northern regular. A question - what is the status of the power upgrade and the 1995 stock accleration profile? It's drastically slugged, much more so than was the 1996 Jubilee stock, and my understanding is that it will be brought up to speed along with TBTC. Is there any improvement at High Barnet - West Finchley, and does anybody know when the stock will finally reach its full performance potential? Power upgrade is done (wasn't that much needed as I believe it was done in the mid 90s). Train performance is upgraded in the TBTC area so you will feel the better performance in that area. Timetable hasn't been changed yet though. So was it in ATO? When the Jub was being converted, they were still controlled by the train op in TBTC. Yes, each section will be in ATO from day 1. However, on this first section Train Ops will be doing some practice PM trips over the next 16 weeks or so. |
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Feb 18, 2013 19:31:11 GMT
So in layman's terms, does it mean that part of the Northern Line is now semi-automated?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 21:38:31 GMT
40mph into a dead end platform!? That could certainly be fun in low adhesion...
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282 
|
Post by Ben on Feb 19, 2013 7:52:11 GMT
Well it worked well enough unitll Moorgate and Tooting.
I'm glad that restrictions and speed checks placed on manual driving into dead end termini are being changed to take into account the trains speed and braking profile being constantly monitored anyway. Hopefully this means that termini RIRO times can be cut back to be similiar to how they were in the 60s when lines throughput was much higher at times.
|
|
l1group
7007+7032 on T004, Gunnersbury
Posts: 358
|
Post by l1group on Feb 19, 2013 17:46:52 GMT
40mph into a dead end platform!? That could certainly be fun in low adhesion... Fun? How would it be? Depends on how you look at it though. But then again, I think we used to have that before 1975... I'm not sure. So in layman's terms, does it mean that part of the Northern Line is now semi-automated? Yes, apparently so. High Barnet to West Finchley. Now, what will be the next stage in the conversion of the Northern line to ATO? |
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 19, 2013 18:47:30 GMT
Now, what will be the next stage in the conversion of the Northern line to ATO? West Finchley/Mill Hill East-Highgate. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 19:09:13 GMT
40mph into a dead end platform!? That could certainly be fun in low adhesion... Where did you hear that? I'm fairly sure it isn't right - for a start there's a TSR on the route into platform 1. |
|
l1group
7007+7032 on T004, Gunnersbury
Posts: 358
|
Post by l1group on Feb 19, 2013 19:30:09 GMT
Now, what will be the next stage in the conversion of the Northern line to ATO? West Finchley/Mill Hill East-Highgate. Thus meaning that the Mill Hill East shuttle will be fully ATO then. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 22:48:24 GMT
Where did you hear that? I'm fairly sure it isn't right - for a start there's a TSR on the route into platform 1. I was quoting the twitter comments from drivers on page 1 too, I thought that might actually be a reliable source of info. Possibly not it would seem. |
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Feb 19, 2013 23:12:07 GMT
Where did you hear that? I'm fairly sure it isn't right - for a start there's a TSR on the route into platform 1. I was quoting the twitter comments from drivers on page 1 too, I thought that might actually be a reliable source of info. Possibly not it would seem. The approach to Platform 1 is only slightly faster than before. Under the old signalling, once NU.3 (1) cleared, it was just about possible to reach 30 mph but then you had to brake *hard* for the 10 mph entering the platform. Many drivers tended to reduce speed earlier in an attempt to give a smoother ride over the points. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2013 19:32:41 GMT
I can confirm 30mph towards Platform 1 and 10mph to 2 and 3.
|
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Feb 20, 2013 19:44:32 GMT
West Finchley/Mill Hill East-Highgate. Thus meaning that the Mill Hill East shuttle will be fully ATO then. Do you think that would mean a restoration of Mill Hill East to London full service? I can confirm 30mph towards Platform 1 and 10mph to 2 and 3. Its still a bit fast if carrying on into the buffers. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2013 22:02:28 GMT
Its still a bit fast if carrying on into the buffers. That's the benefit of continuous ATP. It will bring the speed down automatically well before the train gets anywhere near the buffers; it is 30mph across the points not all the way down the platform ! |
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Feb 21, 2013 0:07:53 GMT
Not atall! To get the most efficient use from a terminal you want trains rolling in and later rolling out as quickly as possible. Having them pass the home signal any slower than they physically need to reduces the capacity of the terminal, and is one of the reasons why Moorgate control has devastated potential capacity on many of the lines. Running into a dead end terminal at a slow speed does reduce the consequences of an overrun, but if you directly and automatically control the speed of the train anyway then the risk of overspeeding (and therefore overrunning)falls significantly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 10:03:10 GMT
Continuous ATO/ATP systems will allow for a considerable safety margin on the approach to dead end termini (or any other obstacle) taking into account the potential for partial loss of braking ability. Thus target speeds will be gradually reduced along the length of the platform.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 22:38:36 GMT
Travelled into London for the first time since the new signalling today. Departures from platforms were much quicker, but the train didn't feel particularly smoother (in fact, it was perhaps slightly noisier than normal).
Also, presumably related to the change, the destination boards at High Barnet are now showing the next 8 trains (up to 30 mins in advance). They previously showed only the first three.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Feb 22, 2013 0:09:35 GMT
Acceleration definitely quicker, but top speeds didn't seem any quicker. I imagine that the speeds have been designed to match the performance of the current timetable. Once the whole line is ATO, the speed should increase. The ATO is quite jerky though, much like the Jubilee.
|
|
|
|
Post by jamesb on Feb 24, 2013 23:30:33 GMT
I travelled to High Barnet on Saturday. The transition at West Finchley was seamless and the acceleration out of stations was definitely faster. Good job!
When is it next due to be extended. It is very exciting... A good contrast between ATO and traditional signalling can be seen at Stockwell. Victoria line trains seem to arrive in close succession especially in rush hour, and are easier to board. The Northern line platform across the passage is packed with the trains arriving packed and two Victoria lines trains might pass in the time it takes for one Northern line train to arrive.
I'm sure it will make a tremendous difference to the Northern line. The trains seem quite 'old' now relatively speaking; by the time the signalling upgrade on the Northern line is complete, I hope the trains are still reliable enough to cope with the increased demand on them.
|
|
