Northern line TBTC

[trt]

Feb 22, 2013 0:09:35 GMT superteacher said:

Acceleration definitely quicker, but top speeds didn't seem any quicker. I imagine that the speeds have been designed to match the performance of the current timetable. Once the whole line is ATO, the speed should increase. The ATO is quite jerky though, much like the Jubilee.

Oh, my poor back! If I used the Jubilee during the peak, I don't think I'd last two weeks!

[Deleted]

Train op today made this announcement as we pulled into West Finchley northbound:

'Just a reminder that from here to High Barnet the train will be controlled by a computer called HOW (I think that was what he said) and the driver will have no control whatsoever'

[slugabed]

Probably HAL,the computer from the film "2001:A Space Odyssey"....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_9000
Clearly a motorman with a sense of humour.

[domh245]

Clearly a motorman with a sense of humour.

Arguably the best sort of Motorman.

[slugabed]

"Morden via Bank,please,HAL"
"I'm afraid I can't do that,Dave"

[trt]

Given the trouble I've seen getting the doors open sometimes, this isn't that far from the truth!

[Deleted]

Next section West Finchley to Kentish Town I think expected to be working by end of June! This includes the MHE branch, which will remain a shuttle for the forseable future as far as I know. The ATO is exactly the same as the Jubilee, so expect the same 'qwirks' and on/off throttle!

[Deleted]

The next section is actually now planned to be converted to TBTC in passenger service on the 2nd June. The next section will be West Finchley / Mill Hill East to Highgate.

[Deleted]

Yes, sorry you are correct the changeover station is Highgate for the next section. 2nd June? Not long to wait then!

[North End]

Feb 24, 2013 23:30:33 GMT jamesb said:

I travelled to High Barnet on Saturday. The transition at West Finchley was seamless and the acceleration out of stations was definitely faster. Good job!

When is it next due to be extended. It is very exciting... A good contrast between ATO and traditional signalling can be seen at Stockwell. Victoria line trains seem to arrive in close succession especially in rush hour, and are easier to board. The Northern line platform across the passage is packed with the trains arriving packed and two Victoria lines trains might pass in the time it takes for one Northern line train to arrive.

I'm sure it will make a tremendous difference to the Northern line. The trains seem quite 'old' now relatively speaking; by the time the signalling upgrade on the Northern line is complete, I hope the trains are still reliable enough to cope with the increased demand on them.

A few comments and myths exposed.

1) At present speed limites are the same as before. I haven't yet had the experience of entering Platform 1, however the entry to the other two platforms is exactly the same as before, i.e. 10 mph. Under the old signalling, Platform 1 could still be approached at 30 mph, the 10 mph PSR didn't start until the start of the platform. I suspect the same applies now.

2) Trains are operating at a higher power in TBTC mode only. I don't know if this is the full capability of the train or if there is still more to come later.

3) The quality of driving in ATO is very poor. Although acceleration is generally better than before, top speed is no different. There is a lot of motoring and braking for no real benefit, and the system stops with a noticeable jolt, just like the Jubilee Line. If a Train Operator stopped with this degree of jolt, it would be noted in a driving assessment. Sadly, PM encourages a similar poor driving technique because it is very prescriptive of how the train drives.

4) It *is* possible to keep speed in PM. In fact, it is quite possible to drive the train almost to exactly the same profile as ATO. The trouble is it puts a *lot* of wear on the traction/brake controller, and on the Train Operator. It also results in "Overspeed approaching" beeps sounding in the cab almost constantly. It would not be pleasant driving the whole length of the line like this!

5) Entry to platforms is much slower than in manual driving. Generally many of the platforms on the TBTC section were good for 35 mph entries. At Woodside Park northbound the platform could be hit at about 40 mph in the dry. TBTC enforces a platform entry at 25 mph or less. In some cases platform entry is reduced to a pathetic 23 mph. Because of this, TBTC running times are actually no quicker than before. The system also has some irritiating delays built into it, for example a delay of a second or two after stopping before the doors can be opened, and a delay after the pilot light comes on before the train will move off. These sorts of delays are poor design because they respresent wasted time, the whole point of the system is to get the maximum number of trains through the line. All the wasted seconds add up to wasting capacity.

Overall verdict - system has some good points, but (for now at least) the good points are heavily outweighed by the many drawbacks. I'd currently rate it 2 out of 10!

[Deleted]

I had the pleasure of using the Northern Line after a meeting with TfL on Thursday. All was normal until we reached East Finchley at which point the train operator announced there were delays due to a defective train at High Barnet.

On the approach to West Finchley the train started to brake heavily and slowed to crawl. On arrival at the Station the driver was unable to set up the doors. So we sat with the doors closed for what felt like a couple of minutes. Passengers stood diligently by the doors waiting for them to open. After a while SONYA announced “this train is about to depart”, but we didn’t!

Eventually the doors opened and after a short while the driver could be heard to blow up for station staff assistance. A decision was then taken to tip out the train. So we all alighted onto the platform. I noticed that the station starter was red, which struck me as a bit odd given the time we had already been there.

The station supervisor announced that the train was defective and another train would arrive imminently. The train moved off towards High Barnet under rule. I did point out the station starter was red and perhaps it indicated a signalling fault but the Station Supervisor reiterated that it was a fault with the train.

While we were waiting for the next train, a contractor arrived and set off to the SCR room. Our new train sat for a while in the platform while the defective train proceeded under rule. The second driver diligently kept us informed of events by PA. However after some time he conceded to advise us that it might be better to use alternative road and rail routes. But I chose to remain put.

Whilst having a nice chat with a very elderly passenger who recalled Steam Trains on the Barnet Branch, the driver announced the signal had cleared and he had permission to proceed.

So off we went at normal line speed. And North End has pointed out, the train we were on seemed to accelerate and decelerate several times. Mostly un-discernible to the traveling public, but I could hear the motors cutting in and out several times followed intermittently by the “brakes” applying. And I agree with North Ends point that you would not expect a driver to drive like that!

On arrival at High Barnet the earlier “defective” train was in platform 1 preparing to set off south in service.

With hindsight it’s possible that the station starter remains red if it cannot identify the train, which may well have caused the train to proceed under rule.

I suspect a few teething problems.

[Deleted]

The signal at West Finchley northbound will stay red if the TBTC system is unable to communicate correctly with the train, so the supervisor was right that this was a train problem.

This particular train ran in Restricted Manual as far as Woodside Park where it was able to continue normal speed ATO working.

You were unlucky, this failed train caused the single longest TBTC delay all week! The earlier defective train at High Barnet wasn't anything to do with the TBTC system.

[domh245]

A little bit of a bump here, but having been on the Northern today (a rarity for me) I just want to ask if the cables (or Inductive loops to use the jargon) have been laid across the entire length of the line? I'm pretty sure that I saw them at Euston, Camden Town, Hampstead, and Euston on my travels.

[londonstuff]

May 15, 2013 17:51:34 GMT domh245 said:

A little bit of a bump here, but having been on the Northern today (a rarity for me) I just want to ask if the cables (or Inductive loops to use the jargon) have been laid across the entire length of the line? I'm pretty sure that I saw them at Euston, Camden Town, Hampstead, and Euston on my travels.

I'm only commenting from casual observation but these were laid down pretty early on into the upgrade - right up (and down) to the different termini. I think these were the easy part of the upgrade, to be honest.

The acid test, presumably, will be Camden junction which is in Mitigation Area 3 which is likely to go live sometime over the summer. (NMA 1 is already live with very few problems at all and NMA 2 is scheduled to go live in a couple of weeks last time I heard) though the smoothness of it all, including very few long shutdowns, seems to indicate that mistakes of the Jubilee have been learned.

[Chris M]

In addition to Camden Junction, Kennington Loop is also going to be tricky according to something I was reading (London Reconnections?). Although they don't anticipate problems with either, there being no comparable stretches of track on the Jubilee Line they cannot speak from experience.

[Deleted]

Picking up on a couple of questions / comments above.

The loop is laid across the line and is gradually being "livened up" so that any comms issues can be picked up long before a section goes live.

NMA3 scheduled date is Feb 14 but the project is looking to bring this date forward if all goes well. Won't be as early as Summer though (although of course depends when UK summer kicks in finally).

Kennington = the unique element is Kennington loop where trains have to change the nominal direction of travel on the signalling system part way round. I don't believe this exists on any other seltrac railway but isn't expected to be a big issue.

[Tomcakes]

I travelled up to High Barnet today over the ATO section. As others have said, it was very noticable after the changeover, indeed from Totteridge to Barnet the train seemed to be motoring for about 3s, braking for about 3s, coasting for about 3s, repeat ad infinitum! Again, as reported upthread, there was a slower than usual approach into platforms, excluding High Barnet, and a few seconds delay before doors opened. Hopefully the latter two points are just part of the testing, as I can see them ruining the benefits of the system (especially at peak times in central London) unless ironed out!

[Chris M]

May 18, 2013 19:14:08 GMT Tomcakes said:

a few seconds delay before doors opened

That's not good but it could be worse. I caught a London Midland service today and at both Bushey and Harrow and Wealdstone the delay between arriving at the platform and the doors opening was a good 30 seconds. London Overground seem to take about 10-15 seconds at times too. Is this a failing of software or procedures?

[SE13]

I would think that it's something to do with elfin safe tea. All wheels no longer turning, wheels secured and other safety features ad nauseum. Only then can the doors be opened. Seems a bit long winded, but then ATO would make the gap back up again in theory.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2013 20:34:37 GMT Chris M said:

May 18, 2013 19:14:08 GMT Tomcakes said:

a few seconds delay before doors opened

That's not good but it could be worse. I caught a London Midland service today and at both Bushey and Harrow and Wealdstone the delay between arriving at the platform and the doors opening was a good 30 seconds. London Overground seem to take about 10-15 seconds at times too. Is this a failing of software or procedures?

Guards procedure on the mainline requires the guard to first ensure train is platformed correctly which means getting out onto the platform and then pressing the door open buttons. Especially if working from the inside the saloon on a 350, the doors are very slow to open, though 30secs seems abit excessive. Definitely strange to have waited 10-15secs on the Overground though as the driver is responsible for the opening of the doors on the 378's and theyre usually released within 2 secs of stopping!

[Dstock7080]

May 20, 2013 14:44:25 GMT @bronzeonion said:

Guards procedure on the mainline requires the guard to first ensure train is platformed correctly which means . . . .

Learn a new word B, "berthed"

[rincew1nd]

May 20, 2013 14:44:25 GMT @bronzeonion said:

May 18, 2013 20:34:37 GMT Chris M said:

That's not good but it could be worse. I caught a London Midland service today and at both Bushey and Harrow and Wealdstone the delay between arriving at the platform and the doors opening was a good 30 seconds. London Overground seem to take about 10-15 seconds at times too. Is this a failing of software or procedures?

Guards procedure on the mainline requires the guard to first ensure train is platformed correctly which means getting out onto the platform and then pressing the door open buttons. Especially if working from the inside the saloon on a 350, the doors are very slow to open, though 30secs seems abit excessive.

I suppose it depends on the time taken for the Guard to get to a door, if they're involved in a retail transaction then it's going to take a little longer.

[andypurk]

May 20, 2013 14:44:25 GMT @bronzeonion said:

May 18, 2013 20:34:37 GMT Chris M said:

That's not good but it could be worse. I caught a London Midland service today and at both Bushey and Harrow and Wealdstone the delay between arriving at the platform and the doors opening was a good 30 seconds. London Overground seem to take about 10-15 seconds at times too. Is this a failing of software or procedures?

Guards procedure on the mainline requires the guard to first ensure train is platformed correctly which means getting out onto the platform and then pressing the door open buttons. Especially if working from the inside the saloon on a 350, the doors are very slow to open, though 30secs seems abit excessive. Definitely strange to have waited 10-15secs on the Overground though as the driver is responsible for the opening of the doors on the 378's and theyre usually released within 2 secs of stopping!

The change only applied on the WCML from when London Midland took over from Silverlink (it isn't a general mainline thing). The delays can be upto 30s per station, when there is a particularly slow guard on, even with a 4 car train where there is little problem in getting the unit platformed. Overall delay can get as high as 4 mins, by the end of the journey.

Southern seem to operate a much better scheme, on the WCML, where the driver is in control of opening the doors, and the guard is only responsible for signaling that it is safe to close them. Southbound Southern services are often delayed by London Midland services, mainly due to delays in door procedures (LM train leaving Tring on time and gradually losing time to Harrow).

[norbitonflyer]

May 20, 2013 19:26:09 GMT andypurk said:

May 20, 2013 14:44:25 GMT @bronzeonion said:

Guards procedure on the mainline requires the guard to first ensure train is platformed correctly which means getting out onto the platform and then pressing the door open buttons.

The change only applied on the WCML from when London Midland took over from Silverlink (it isn't a general mainline thing).

We get this on SWT too - train stops: long pause: doors open.

[causton]

455s aren't as bad on the SWT network but the Desiros (350s and 450s) on SWT and LM are not very good for it. Looked on the clock at Euston when I last arrived there on the weekend and it was about 25-30 seconds!

[Deleted]

May 20, 2013 20:12:04 GMT norbitonflyer said:

May 20, 2013 19:26:09 GMT andypurk said:

The change only applied on the WCML from when London Midland took over from Silverlink (it isn't a general mainline thing).

We get this on SWT too - train stops: long pause: doors open.

Recently London Midland have introduced a very good scheme on the Cross City line. They've painted green lines along the platform edge where the rear or middle cab stops so the guard doesn't need to have a walk about before opening the doors therefore speeding up the time it takes for the doors to open. This would be a good idea for SWT especially on the suburban commuter network. However all this is for another thread!

[Deleted]

May 20, 2013 19:26:09 GMT andypurk said:

May 20, 2013 14:44:25 GMT @bronzeonion said:

Guards procedure on the mainline requires the guard to first ensure train is platformed correctly which means getting out onto the platform and then pressing the door open buttons. Especially if working from the inside the saloon on a 350, the doors are very slow to open, though 30secs seems abit excessive. Definitely strange to have waited 10-15secs on the Overground though as the driver is responsible for the opening of the doors on the 378's and theyre usually released within 2 secs of stopping!

The change only applied on the WCML from when London Midland took over from Silverlink (it isn't a general mainline thing). The delays can be upto 30s per station, when there is a particularly slow guard on, even with a 4 car train where there is little problem in getting the unit platformed. Overall delay can get as high as 4 mins, by the end of the journey.

Southern seem to operate a much better scheme, on the WCML, where the driver is in control of opening the doors, and the guard is only responsible for signaling that it is safe to close them. Southbound Southern services are often delayed by London Midland services, mainly due to delays in door procedures (LM train leaving Tring on time and gradually losing time to Harrow).

Oh really? What used to happen under Silverlinks rule?

[Deleted]

No doubt someone will correct me if I'm imagining it but I have an idea that on the Jubilee the train performance is noticeably different on the open air sections than the tunnel sections. I vaguely recall hearing somewhere that the ATC is programmed to be more conservative on the open air section station approaches to cater for the more variable rail conditions. If that is the case on the Jubilee then presumably the same applies on the Northern and would explain the slower station approaches being reported.

My perception on the Jubilee tunnel sections is that the station to station running times are generally shorter than before TBTC and (unsurprisingly) pretty consistent. I would not be surprised to find the same on the Northern tunnel sections when they come on stream.

[Deleted]

One key difference with the Jubilee signalling upgrade was the increasing of the line speeds across the line. As far as I'm aware this is something that the Northern won't be getting. The tunnel sections have a number of permanent speed restrictions due to the tight bends in certain locations, also the local infrastructure has an effect on some of the speed restrictions. 

The 95's are governed down to 60% of full motoring potential under manually driven tripcock mode, under TBTC the trains are able to use all of the available motor power leading to vast improvements in acceleration (and braking!!). 

As for station approaches, the variable outdoor weather conditions will have been factored in, however the wheel anti slip / slide protection (while not perfect) is pretty decent, so if trains are crawling into some platforms it does seem a little strange to me. 

Anyway those are just my thoughts off the top of my head, hope that helps dy444

[andypurk]

May 20, 2013 21:59:09 GMT @bronzeonion said:

Oh really? What used to happen under Silverlinks rule?

The guards didn't have to step out onto the platform and so the doors opened a lot more quickly!!