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Post by carltona on Aug 23, 2013 11:36:46 GMT
Modern Railways are suggesting the Bakerloo will have it's trains refurbished to last into the 2030s. They will be rather elderly by then. What would need doing to get them to last out so long? Where are they likely to be sent for the work?
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Post by trt on Aug 23, 2013 13:11:18 GMT
I like the 72ts. It's quite a treat to go for a ride in them, which I do sometimes to go the the IMW at Elephant. Mind you, I'm a fan of heritage railways, so to have one operating on my doorstep... ;-)
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Post by superteacher on Aug 23, 2013 14:17:25 GMT
Perhaps they will be the first underground trains to be refurbished twice within their working lives?
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Post by snoggle on Aug 23, 2013 15:32:02 GMT
Modern Railways are suggesting the Bakerloo will have it's trains refurbished to last into the 2030s. They will be rather elderly by then. What would need doing to get them to last out so long? Where are they likely to be sent for the work? I haven't seen the new MR yet but that suggests quite a delay in the admittedly "broad brush" dates last given for the upgrade. Possibly up to a decade's delay which is dire IMO. The Bakerloo isn't easy to upgrade anyway but that suggests TfL's finances are even more parlous than anyone imagined or else there has been a big scrap which has seen LU expenditure pushed way back in favour of cycling and road investment. So much for investing in infrastructure! I've no idea what state the 72 stock is in but I'd guess things like corrosion, body fatigue, internal wiring wearing / becoming brittle, motors and bodies would all be concerns. The other issue would be spares - will some components (or equivalents) still be made in 5 years time never mind 20 years? After all LU made much of the escalating costs they face with old stock in their arguments to government and other stakeholders when fighting for the last two financial settlements. |
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a60
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Post by a60 on Aug 23, 2013 16:56:33 GMT
The spares issue could have been abated by the withdrawal of the 67TS, with a large parts commonality it will have made sense to heavily cannibalise that fleet and there may now be a considerable spares pool. This is, of course, hypothetical, and such a thing may not have happened. The 72TS still seems to be in fairly good fettle at the present time (save perhaps for the interiors).
Out of interest, did LU do much heavy cannibalisation of the 67TS to get a large spares pool for the 72TS?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 19:48:09 GMT
Perhaps they will be the first underground trains to be refurbished twice within their working lives? Thought the 1938 stock was done to keep it going in the 80s? Out of interest, did LU do much heavy cannibalisation of the 67TS to get a large spares pool for the 72TS? If the answer to that is no there are a few stored at Eastleigh so I suppose these could be stripped for spares. However I think at least some internal features of the 67 stock were taken for use on the Bakerloo I've seen pictures of units with Victoria line blue ventilation controls! |
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 24, 2013 8:03:51 GMT
The article states that there will be equipment upgrades.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 24, 2013 8:47:18 GMT
Perhaps they will be the first underground trains to be refurbished twice within their working lives? Thought the 1938 stock was done to keep it going in the 80s? The 1938 stock was never really refurbished in the way that more modern stock was. The thing that you are referring to was called an EHO (Extra Heavy Overhaul). To me, a true refurbishment significantly changes the internal appearance of a train - this never really happened with the1938 stock. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 24, 2013 21:54:19 GMT
Having now got hold of the latest MR and read the relevant article I see that the Bakerloo line upgrade "postponement" is the result of HM Treasury "demands" (for want of a better phrase). Very much reading between the lines it looks like the Treasury has decided that LU can only be trusted with one line upgrade at a time. That's in marked contrast to the Treasury promoted PPP spread of upgrades. Therefore we get Northern Line completed soonish, Sub Surface upgrade next and then the Piccadilly Line is next. The comforting words from the Director of Projects about LU being trusted to deliver capital projects ring ever so slightly hollow to me.
This development is also in rather marked contrast to the triumphant tone of the Mayor's press release when the longer term financial settlement (a positive development to be fair) was announced. Now we are starting to see quite what the detail is that sits behind the settlement and the compromises that TfL have been forced to accept. The other telling remark is the stated pressure to get operating costs down (but that's been touched on in some other threads so not for detailed discussion here). Interesting times ahead for lots of people including Bakerloo Line passengers!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2013 8:55:02 GMT
In reality, is it not likely the 73 stock from the Piccadilly may move over - this is more reliable and of a more modern design.
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 25, 2013 12:30:01 GMT
In reality, is it not likely the 73 stock from the Piccadilly may move over - this is more reliable and of a more modern design. The piece clearly states that the Bakerloo Line will remain with 1972 stock. One of the reasons given for the Piccadilly Line getting in first is reliability problems. |
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Post by Chris M on Aug 25, 2013 12:38:01 GMT
Would it fit? The 73 stock cars are longer than those of the 72 stock (DMs 1382mm longer, UNDM/Ts 1699mm [1]). I think there are some tight bends on the Bakerloo around Paddington and particularly around the crossover at Piccadilly Circus. [1] DM 17473mm vs 16091mm, UNDM/T 17676mm vs 15977mm. Source: Tubeprune www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Dimensions.htm which also has details for centre and end throw. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 25, 2013 13:22:34 GMT
How on earth can it be that the 72ts is more reliable? Its refurbishment was almost a decade earlier, and had far less money spent on it. The last time I checked the mdbf stats the 73 stock was leagues ahead! In fact wasn't it the most reliable stock on TfL for a very long while by some margin? WRT fitting, remedial works have happened here and there to other tube lines to accommodate long wheel base stock, so it wouldnt be the first in need of a tunnel 'shave'. When was the last time Picc Circus was used? And buying clone stock for the northern... Thats crazy, the design will be 30 years old by the time the last train enters service; where will the traction equipment come from? Not to mention the perpetuation of small 83ts windows... Can one of the learned members comment on why these particular set of decisions have been made? To be frank, better plans were seemingly made on this forum earlier this year, not to mention tubeprune's article a while back in one of the railway mags. The 73ts is a far mroe sophisticated stock both in equipment and aesthetic than the 67/72ts. Am I alone in thinking this all seems... not the most efficient of ways of doing things? :  |
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 25, 2013 15:33:57 GMT
The crossover at Piccadilly Circus has been used for several days at a time because of emergency track repairs in the past.
More than a shave would be necessary with those dimensions.
73 stock had to have the grabrails above the doors replaced to pull the roof down to fit on the Piccadilly Line.
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Post by piccboy on Aug 25, 2013 15:52:02 GMT
How on earth can it be that the 72ts is more reliable? Its refurbishment was almost a decade earlier, and had far less money spent on it. The last time I checked the mdbf stats the 73 stock was leagues ahead! In fact wasn't it the most reliable stock on TfL for a very long while by some margin? Not sure where you are getting your reliability figures from, but would be sure interested to see them. From my personal perspective in the last few weeks the delays on the Bakerloo line have all been Track and Signalling problems, where the Piccadilly line have had several train problems. WRT fitting, remedial works have happened here and there to other tube lines to accommodate long wheel base stock, so it wouldnt be the first in need of a tunnel 'shave'. When was the last time Picc Circus was used? I would agree a tunnel shave would solve the problem, but only if it was done with the new EVO (or what ever they are going to be) in mind. But as there is no budget for Bakerloo upgrade, where would then money come from for the work? Picc Circus points were last used two week ago when there was a Signal failure around the Waterloo area. Would not be a major problem to keep these points in use anyway, as 72 have to stop at a further stopping mark than normal when reversing, so long as their replacement can do the same (possibly with cutting out front doors) that keeps a flexibility that allows trains into the West end when there is a disruption, as the next nearest points are either Paddington or Waterloo (via the Depot). And buying clone stock for the northern... Thats crazy, the design will be 30 years old by the time the last train enters service; where will the traction equipment come from? Not to mention the perpetuation of small 83ts windows... It was done for the C stock that was urgently needed. But mixing two different designs on a line is always problematic in terms of maintenance and ATO systems, taking that into the equation it is probably the most cost effective way in order to obtain the new trains required for the Battersea extension. The actual cost would depend on how much of the original tooling still exists. Can one of the learned members comment on why these particular set of decisions have been made? To be frank, better plans were seemingly made on this forum earlier this year, not to mention tubeprune's article a while back in one of the railway mags. Totally agree, suspect it is Political decisions on budgets that have forced things down this avenue. The 73ts is a far more sophisticated stock both in equipment and aesthetic than the 67/72ts. Am I alone in thinking this all seems... not the most efficient of ways of doing things? : Yes the 73's are a far more sophisticated stock then 72's, but that can be a problem with age - more to go wrong and more expensive to fix. I would also raise the question of mileage - with the demands of Heathrow and the length of the line (71 kms Piccadilly, 23 kms Bakerloo), I wonder if the 72's have far less miles under their belt then the 73's. Would very much like to know the average mileage of both stock. |
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Post by Ben on Jan 16, 2014 19:57:40 GMT
Just noticed this sorry! My data comes from TfL's site: www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/modesoftransport/londonunderground/1592.aspxActually it seems to have not been updated for a few months now :/ I have a question relating to the Bakerloo's stock. Is it really in such poor physical condition that it must be rebuilt *now*, instead waiting and becoming the first to receive new stock? |
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Post by domh245 on Jan 16, 2014 20:20:06 GMT
This could all change now though because of the SSL signaling contract falling through. I was under the impression that one of the reasons they wanted to get the 73s gone was because of the shared track with the District and Metropolitan lines, so getting rid of the 73s would allow the stock to have the new signalling system as standard, rather than retrofitting it to the older 73 stock, and also getting rid of a couple of issues that were already there (heathrow &c). Depending on what happens with the new contract, TfL could start to replace the 72TS before the 73TS, as a "test run" on a comparatively more quiet line, and then converting the Piccadilly line afterwards when the SSL re-signalling has been done, allowing whatever signalling system they chose to then be put on the Bakerloo and once that is done, the rest of the Piccadilly. Something tells me that this won't happen though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 20:20:10 GMT
Just noticed this sorry! My data comes from TfL's site: www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/modesoftransport/londonunderground/1592.aspxActually it seems to have not been updated for a few months now :/ I have a question relating to the Bakerloo's stock. Is it really in such poor physical condition that it must be rebuilt *now*, instead waiting and becoming the first to receive new stock? To quote PoP of London Reconnections: |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 20:22:09 GMT
After so long, things start to fail and parts begin to rust. The overhaul is going to be done in house at the TMU, which makes the cost a lot less than going to another company to get the work done.
The first three Bakerloo (prototypes) should be ready to head down to TMU once the MPU is out the doors.
Any yes, the rewelding work is already being carried out.
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Post by Ben on Jan 16, 2014 20:54:34 GMT
Is it effectively the necessary inventment in the Bloos stock, then, thats the nail in the coffin for the 73ts, ultimately?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 16, 2014 22:12:09 GMT
I was under the impression that one of the reasons they wanted to get the 73s gone was because of the shared track with the District and Metropolitan lines, so getting rid of the 73s would allow the stock to have the new signalling system as standard, rather than retrofitting it to the older 73 stock, and also getting rid of a couple of issues that were already there (heathrow &c). If the Bombardier contract had continued '73 Stock were due to fitted with in-cab signalling displays from the middle of this year, for operation form Barons Court-Northfields/Uxbridge. |
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Post by A60stock on Jan 17, 2014 12:24:10 GMT
just a couple of questions:
1. what exactly do you mean by rewelding?
2. When can we expect to see a prototype or infact a fully refurbished 72ts unit?
3. When will the 73 stock be replaced now that it seems the 72s will be rewelded?
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jan 17, 2014 13:57:05 GMT
I would also raise the question of mileage - with the demands of Heathrow and the length of the line (71 kms Piccadilly, 23 kms Bakerloo), I wonder if the 72's have far less miles under their belt then the 73's. Would very much like to know the average mileage of both stock. The length of the line would be largely immaterial I'd have thought. It would be more likely the average speed that'd dictate the accumulated mileage. For example if a train on the Bakerloo line does Harrow to Elephant three times as frequently daily as a Piccadilly train does Cockfosters to Heathrow or Uxbridge then the accumulated mileage would be almost identical between the two. Taking the age of the trains into consideration I'd hazard a guess that there's not a lot in it. On the other hand, I play the guitar and sell fishing tackle in my spare time so what do I know?!  Not very much most likely!  Rich |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 16:25:02 GMT
First 1972 Stock goes to Acton Works soon as Train 1 for the "Life Extension Project".
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Post by a60 on Jan 17, 2014 16:37:27 GMT
Now folks, just bear with me on this one, because it is just a whacky idea that popped in to my head (as many do), would it make any sense to nick the D78 Stock's Dot Matrix Info Systems as they go out of service? It'd save a little bit of money on the "life extension project." The 72's will need them if they are going to be in service beyond 2019 to comply with DDA.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 17, 2014 16:54:43 GMT
Is it effectively the necessary inventment in the Bloos stock, then, thats the nail in the coffin for the 73ts, ultimately? I don't really see it that way. The Piccadilly Line should have been part way through its upgrade by now if things had stayed on their original programme. Obviously an awful lot has changed since then but the problem is that the old maintenance and refurbishment assumptions were designed on an assumed withdrawal date for the 73 stock. That has now been somewhat stretched by a few years meaning that the 73s have to limp along in service for a few more years. In addition there is the issue of the Picc line's signalling system (even ignoring the shared bits with SSL) and the ancient control system. I believe something has been done to "patch" the control system a bit (Centralised Train Following System??) to give the controllers a bit more info on where the trains are. I expect there are also issues with power supplies (traction and signalling) and track and depots which an upgrade would pull together in one renewal / enhancement package. Nonetheless for such an intensively used service that supports travel to / from Heathrow, many suburbs and a vast slice of the West End there comes a point when you can't delay any more. There has also been considerable political pressure on the Mayor to get this upgrade off the starting blocks and give it funding. The recent SSL signalling developments create both risk and an opportunity as to what you do with the Picc Line alongside SSR services in West London. It remains to be seen what precisely emerges in terms of a co-ordinated plan once LU has re-awarded the SSR signalling contract. I expect LU does have a plan to adjust service patterns but whatever it decides to do will have advantages and disadvantages and the key will be to pitch the proposals in such a way that people don't feel deprived. In comparison the Bakerloo has long been a "make do and mend" line with hand me down rolling stock and a low profile compared to other lines. It was always at the back of the queue for the Line Upgrades so it's no surprise that the Government has effectively twisted Boris's arm that it will allow the start of the Picc Upgrade but won't give a commitment to a wider programme of upgrades. The 72 stock is 40+ years old and it should be heading to the scrap heap but instead it has to soldier on. Given their age it is no surprise that some level of remedial action will be required - probably to underframes, bogies and bodywork but I am guessing about the parts that need attention. Given the Bakerloo is quiet (a relative term given how busy LU is overall) compared to other routes it's no surprise there is less pressure to upgrade it. I expect that the Mayor probably thinks the Bakerloo's issues can be resolved alongside a decision to extend it into South London. I'm not convinced myself as I think any extension proposal will be bitterly fought over because each council will want a new line in "their" area [1] while outer Boroughs will want guarantees they won't lose their main line commuter links to the City / Charing Cross [2]. Further, pressure to build Crossrail 2 will inevitably shove any Bakerloo line extension way down the funding queue. The only hope is if we get a change of Mayor and Government that takes a rather different view to funding TfL than the current set up. [1] one extension can't serve Camberwell, North Peckham, Old Kent Road, Peckham, New Cross and Lewisham on one alignment! All these areas are busy and have been cited in past studies for Bakerloo extensions. [2] will the residents of Hayes (or wherever) want to travel to town on a tube train when their existing heavy rail services are jammed full in the peaks? Doubtful. There are usually trade offs when tube lines are built - other services get reduced to produce savings especially if the tube lines takes over / replicates existing NR services. |
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Post by Ben on Jan 17, 2014 17:54:43 GMT
Snoggle - the 1973ts is hardly 'limping' along, and thats my point. The *impression* seems to be that structural work is needed so immediately for the Bakerloo stock that new stock could not be developed and ordered for whatever line and a suitable cascade occur within the timescale necessary. If this wasn't the case the newer design of the more mechanically reliable, more recently refurbished 73ts would be a far candidate for serving longer.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 17, 2014 19:32:39 GMT
TfL have just issued new papers for the Finance and Policy Committee that includes an update on the New Tube for London plans. Meeting PapersEnjoy |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 17, 2014 21:26:37 GMT
Snoggle - the 1973ts is hardly 'limping' along, and thats my point. The *impression* seems to be that structural work is needed so immediately for the Bakerloo stock that new stock could not be developed and ordered for whatever line and a suitable cascade occur within the timescale necessary. If this wasn't the case the newer design of the more mechanically reliable, more recently refurbished 73ts would be a far candidate for serving longer. See the TfL paper that I linked to in a post just above this one. The imperative for the Picc Line is the vast capacity improvement and associated benefits - in other words it is really worth doing and also it's daft to delay it any more. Given it's a big project to upgrade the line then better to get going ASAP even if the trains can be made to run for a further 8-10 years or so (well LU has no choice actually!). LU has to hope it doesn't get some sort of endemic failure with the 73 stock in those 10 years. Look at the projected uplift in train capacity / tph for the eventual Bakerloo line upgrade - far, are more modest which shows that there is no pressing need to do anything substantial for the Bakerloo. It's not under great pressure nor is it forecast to be so it can limp along for another 20 years with some "pimped up" 72 stock. Clearly there are some fleet issues so spending cash to rectify those in order to get another 20 years out of stock that is, in general terms, at the end of its life is the only viable option. LU / TfL clearly cannot justify to the DfT and Treasury that there is a compelling case *at this time* to spend billions on the Bakerloo Line. If you think about it by the time we get to 2023 or so then TfL will be saying "we really MUST upgrade the Bakerloo Line. The trains will be over 60 years old in 2033 and we cannot keep them in service beyond that. Cough up the money now or the line will have to be shut." There is a limit to "sweating the assets" and I think 2033 will be it for the Bakerloo Line fleet and infrastructure. |
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 18, 2014 7:17:31 GMT
First 1972 Stock goes to Acton Works soon as Train 1 for the "Life Extension Project". It would be useful to have a description of what is going to be done and how much it will cost and how long it will take. |
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