72 Stock to Serve Until 2030's

[norbitonflyer]

Apr 12, 2014 11:19:37 GMT @a729 said:

Apr 6, 2014 20:30:50 GMT miff said:

Perhaps we need to go back to the days of the 'accountants rebuild'

What does that mean?

A bit like the proverbial everlasting shovel: had it fifty years: only needed five new blades and three new handles.

Presumably for some arcane reason to do with the difference between capital expenditure and running costs (maintenance), many railway workshops produced what were essentially new locomotives but were officially rebuilt older ones. As long as some components were re-used it would be allowable as maintenance. The "rebuilt" Royal Scots on the LMS for example had new boilers, frames and cylinders - only the cabs, wheels and some minor fittings were carried over. The class 57 diesels are essentially new locomotives - little remains of the Class 47s they were rebuilt from except the visible outer bodyshell.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2014 14:26:55 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Apr 12, 2014 11:19:37 GMT @a729 said:

What does that mean?

A bit like the proverbial everlasting shovel: had it fifty years: only needed five new blades and three new handles.

Presumably for some arcane reason to do with the difference between capital expenditure and running costs (maintenance), many railway workshops produced what were essentially new locomotives but were officially rebuilt older ones. As long as some components were re-used it would be allowable as maintenance. The "rebuilt" Royal Scots on the LMS for example had new boilers, frames and cylinders - only the cabs, wheels and some minor fittings were carried over. The class 57 diesels are essentially new locomotives - little remains of the Class 47s they were rebuilt from except the visible outer bodyshell.

I see! Surely TfL doesn't need to do so now that that PPP is over!

[Ben]

Well it very much depends. Such rebuilds have a legitimate role to play, not only in financial terms. Sometimes construction just can't be matched in terms of quality or standard, because either the same materials are unavailable or modern rules, practices, and standards disallow it to be built new, yet accept it being brought in through 'grandfather rights'.

However, whether the 92ts or 72ts represent a physical manifestation of the ship of Theseus paradox is something of a moot point - neither is occuring because the product is good, its just because they dont have the money or the political balls to say either is knackered as bluntly as they should. Throwing good money after bad comes to mind.

By TfL's own data, the 73 stock is the better stock by far. But the 72ts is in too bad a condition, and the Bakerloo isnt gauged for the 73ts, or any other 58' stock. Neither is the Central!




////

No doubt in the old days some convoluted plan would have emerged! Order new trains of the 95/6 design now for the Picc, but only enough to displace as few as needed 73ts to the Bakerloo. Then, when the NTfL is finalised, order that for the Pic and the W&C, scrapp the 73ts left on the Pic, put the drains 92s on the Central and the new batch of 95/6 stock on the Jub and Northern. Then order the NTfL for the Central, then the Bakerloo.

[metrailway]

An example of a LU related accountant's rebuild is Metropolitan No. 1. The Met's operational department were denied funds to replace the original Met No. 1, so on paper it was put out down as a repair, even though what emerged was a brand new locomotive. It is why the 'new' Met No. 1 has no builder's plates fitted.

[miff]

Indeed - perhaps they will need to try the same trick with the '72 stock if it is as bad as some people say.

[flippyff]

www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/future-tfl-opportunities-over-500k.pdf

Page 8 of the PDF.....

Contract Opportunity
As part of the 72TS life extension. A framework for flooring is required. May have the option for use on other stock.

Expected Award Date
31/10/2014

Cost Range £*
>£1m - 5m

Category or Categories
Rail Signalling & Rolling Stock

Commercial Lead Area
Line Upgrades

[a60]

Going on that basis, I guess we should expect to see the first refreshed train in the spring of next year, and as I said earlier in this thread (or related thread), it wouldn't surprise me if certain bits (destination screens and PIS mainly) were nicked from the D Stock in order to help keep costs of the refresh down.

[carltona]

Any new seat covers on the horizon? At least you still get a bit of spring in the 72 seating unlike the more modern types.

[Deleted]

The plan at the moment is for the 72 to turn up at Acton works for a overhaul. The prototypes are being done currently I believe. Work was carried out at Stonebridge park depot to build a new road that is a ramp to get the stock up onto lowloaders to be driven to Acton.

Last time the Bakerloo was taken by rail so I am a little confused over the use of low loaders but I can only assume it due to the route they would take.

[bassmike]

The obvious always escapes them.

[bigvern]

Jun 7, 2014 11:24:53 GMT @luacton said:

The plan at the moment is for the 72 to turn up at Acton works for a overhaul. The prototypes are being done currently I believe. Work was carried out at Stonebridge park depot to build a new road that is a ramp to get the stock up onto lowloaders to be driven to Acton.

Last time the Bakerloo was taken by rail so I am a little confused over the use of low loaders but I can only assume it due to the route they would take.

The reason they are installing a ramp from 36rd at Stonebridge Park depot, is indeed to take the cars to Acton Works by road, it may seem strange, but because the Jubilee Line is now TBTC controlled the Bakerloo Line trains are unable to cross to the Jubilee line without a whole possession of the line, which is almost impossible to achieve.

It was the same reason as some engineers trains were hauled from Ruislip over Network rail to Willesden to gain the Bakerloo line, however the Engineers trains are now able to cross from Jubilee Line to the Bakerloo Line

With more different signalling systems being installed, cross transfers of passenger stock between lines will become very rare.

[Deleted]

Jun 7, 2014 16:27:46 GMT bigvern said:

Jun 7, 2014 11:24:53 GMT @luacton said:

The plan at the moment is for the 72 to turn up at Acton works for a overhaul. The prototypes are being done currently I believe. Work was carried out at Stonebridge park depot to build a new road that is a ramp to get the stock up onto lowloaders to be driven to Acton.

Last time the Bakerloo was taken by rail so I am a little confused over the use of low loaders but I can only assume it due to the route they would take.

The reason they are installing a ramp from 36rd at Stonebridge Park depot, is indeed to take the cars to Acton Works by road, it may seem strange, but because the Jubilee Line is now TBTC controlled the Bakerloo Line trains are unable to cross to the Jubilee line without a whole possession of the line, which is almost impossible to achieve.

It was the same reason as some engineers trains were hauled from Ruislip over Network rail to Willesden to gain the Bakerloo line, however the Engineers trains are now able to cross from Jubilee Line to the Bakerloo Line

With more different signalling systems being installed, cross transfers of passenger stock between lines will become very rare.

Couldn't they do the same in reverse? Go over network Rail from Willesden to Ruislip and gain the Picc from there? Or else get onto the NLL from Willesden from where it's easy to go to Gunnersbury for the District?

Ahhh maybe it's just easier by road, but it seems like more effort than it's worth installing a ramp and then having to transport a train by road when there are perfectly good rails!

[bigvern]

The 72 stock is most likely out of gauge on many places on NR, to get clearance which would involve detailed survey and engineering clearance of any fouls, also the route access would have to be paid for and loco haulage, all shoe gear would have to be removed as well. unfortunately road now wins, as cheaper option.
For example Twyford Station on NR the platform would take all the outer sill plates off the train, as tube stock is much wider at the lower end of NR gauge,
This was found when data was obtained to attempt to bring back the Asset Inspection Train back from Eastleigh

[Deleted]

Jun 7, 2014 16:54:28 GMT bigvern said:

The 72 stock is most likely out of gauge on many places on NR, to get clearance which would involve detailed survey and engineering clearance of any fouls, also the route access would have to be paid for and loco haulage, all shoe gear would have to be removed as well. unfortunately road now wins, as cheaper option.
For example Twyford Station on NR the platform would take all the outer sill plates off the train, as tube stock is much wider at the lower end of NR gauge,
This was found when data was obtained to attempt to bring back the Asset Inspection Train back from Eastleigh

Thanks I guess that just about covers it

[Hassaan]

Jun 7, 2014 16:54:28 GMT bigvern said:

The 72 stock is most likely out of gauge on many places on NR, to get clearance which would involve detailed survey and engineering clearance of any fouls, also the route access would have to be paid for and loco haulage, all shoe gear would have to be removed as well. unfortunately road now wins, as cheaper option.
For example Twyford Station on NR the platform would take all the outer sill plates off the train, as tube stock is much wider at the lower end of NR gauge,
This was found when data was obtained to attempt to bring back the Asset Inspection Train back from Eastleigh

Step boards and lower seem to be a fairly common problem, I remember it was these that caused problems for A Stock pretty much everywhere and C Stock between Barking and Upminster. NR stock doesn't seem to be exempt either, the Networkers had to be delivered with step boards removed and there are many places in South London where they're banned (e.g. leaving Wandsworth Road on the Overground towards Clapham Junction, or north of Blackfriars).

If it isn't step boards then it is the power supply...

[Deleted]

Jun 7, 2014 16:27:46 GMT bigvern said:

Jun 7, 2014 11:24:53 GMT @luacton said:

The plan at the moment is for the 72 to turn up at Acton works for a overhaul. The prototypes are being done currently I believe. Work was carried out at Stonebridge park depot to build a new road that is a ramp to get the stock up onto lowloaders to be driven to Acton.

Last time the Bakerloo was taken by rail so I am a little confused over the use of low loaders but I can only assume it due to the route they would take.

The reason they are installing a ramp from 36rd at Stonebridge Park depot, is indeed to take the cars to Acton Works by road, it may seem strange, but because the Jubilee Line is now TBTC controlled the Bakerloo Line trains are unable to cross to the Jubilee line without a whole possession of the line, which is almost impossible to achieve.

It was the same reason as some engineers trains were hauled from Ruislip over Network rail to Willesden to gain the Bakerloo line, however the Engineers trains are now able to cross from Jubilee Line to the Bakerloo Line

With more different signalling systems being installed, cross transfers of passenger stock between lines will become very rare.

I thought it may have been something along those lines, but I failed to check what route they took the first time. There are a few cars at Acton works already which I expect may have been brought over by road as well. 

[br7mt]

I think that train came over under its own power in Engineering Hours as the spur hadn't been built at Stonebridge Park then.

Regards,

Dan

[roythebus]

I've not followed all this thread but would suggest that anything that has computers goes out of date far quicker than anything with proper controls, relays and switches, oh, and real brakes!

With so much non-standardisation on LU these days especially in the signalling department, it has reduced whatever flexibility of operation there may have been in the past.

The A stock lasted over 50 years as did the Q23 (well nearly), and the 38TS is still running on the Isle of Wight, making that over 75 years in service. My son is fleet engineer on the Southern and is currently moaning about the lack of parts for the 442s; mostly door control stuff, all modern bits which are obsolete!

[domh245]

The bit about the 442s would probably be because they were a small fleet, built in the late 80s, and to date are the only type of stock built with that sort of door mechanism. I personally would have thought the biggest problems would have been the ancient motors, from the 4-REPs, making them about 50 years old, of hard service. Its no wonder they were all combusting not that long ago

[antharro]

I've moved the off-topic posts to a new thread in Signalling and Track, titled "Signalling and EU Procurement rules". It's possible that thread may be split further depending on how it develops. Let's please try to keep this thread on-topic!

[Deleted]

I am quite lucky to work on main different components for the underground some of which include Bakerloo equipment. Some of it really is of quite basic design, but it works. I have no doubt the Bakerloo being able to serve till 2030 as the parts I have seen have been in very good overall condition.

[metman]

Does anyone know the first two units that are having work undertaken in them?

[carltona]

If only they would fit armrests and "dangly knobs", then it would be real retroland down the B'loo.

[Antje]

I hope that the 1972 stock gets a full refurbishment this time because the existing interiors are starting to show its age.

How radical is the refurbishment going to be? How much of the exterior or interior will change (except for the new sealing on the doors, since I already noted it)?

[A60stock]

any update on this?

[Deleted]

I remember seeing cars 3337 and 4538 if that helps.

[A60stock]

by seen the cars do you mean you have seen them in refurbished state?

[Deleted]

Aug 27, 2014 18:45:35 GMT A60stock said:

by seen the cars do you mean you have seen them in refurbished state?

As far as I know, there are no completed refurbed cars yet, but yes I have seen them during the refurb. If I remember, I shall write down the numbers of all the cars (7 I believe) being worked on at the moment tomorrow.

[Deleted]

There are 7 cars in the workshop. Their numbers:
4337
4538
3337
3438
4237
3237
3538

[metman]

Thanks for that I look forward to seeing them. I was on the Bakerloo last night. I note the single headlight placed in the end of the UNDM. Was this added during the last refurb?