Vivarail's 'D Train' - 'D' stock reborn

[Chris M]

They should only be live when the train is in position but no system is perfect. I'm also struggling to understand the relevance of that - it is possible that an emergency could occur when the train is in the platform. Train-based staff probably should be in the platform at the same but may not be (especially if their welfare facilities at West Ealing), even if they are they may not be aware or may be the ones in need of emergency assistance.
It is also possible that there is a need to remove the power when the train isn't in the platform - either due to malfunction or precaution (trespassers, debris). Especially as staff (and some passengers) who are familiar with third rail but not this system will assume the power is live at all times - indeed people are taught to assume power is live without proof that it isn't.

[alpinejohn]

Exactly - I would not read too much into this somewhat OTT notice.

Perhaps I am being too cynical but to put it into context, on almost every occasion I ever visit any fast food outlet like McD I have almost inevitably had to avoid the presence of one or more bright yellow cones warning customers the floor may be wet/slippery. I rather suspect this is a classic example of risk mitigation by the fast food outlet lawyers - so in the event anyone slips/falls over, they have the defence that they took reasonable steps to warn the public - and any injury is therefore essentially their fault for ignoring the warning.

I am sure the West Ealing kit is the essentially the same as (or possibly is) the fast charging kit which was previously tested at Long Marston - and so far I have not heard any reports of deaths/injuries during its use.

Inevitably there is a remote risk that some clown will eventually drop their mobile phone down the gap beside the train whilst fast charging is actually underway. However even if the sign was 20 times larger, I doubt it could ever garantee it would prevent a member of the public behaving public stupidly to then try and retrieve it. Hence I rather feel this alarming notice is mostly to help keep the TFL Legal Department happy.

[pgb]

Mar 2, 2024 14:19:21 GMT alpinejohn said:

Perhaps I am being too cynical but to put it into context, on almost every occasion I ever visit any fast food outlet like McD I have almost inevitably had to avoid the presence of one or more bright yellow cones warning customers the floor may be wet/slippery. I rather suspect this is a classic example of risk mitigation by the fast food outlet lawyers - so in the event anyone slips/falls over, they have the defence that they took reasonable steps to warn the public - and any injury is therefore essentially their fault for ignoring the warning.

To counter that, if every time you go in, there's a yellow cone. Then they're is obviously a floor grip issue which they're not resolving. Therefore they are liable!

[starlight73]

Agree that it’s about electricity too.

Mar 2, 2024 11:33:33 GMT Chris M said:

Especially as staff (and some passengers) who are familiar with third rail but not this system will assume the power is live at all times - indeed people are taught to assume power is live without proof that it isn't.

That makes sense - even if the current is programmed to be off, this gives an extra step of “hard” isolation (not controlled by machines somewhere). 

[spsmiler]

Now that the services are supposed to have been enhanced, etc., I was looking to go to the Isle of Wight to sample their Vivarail trains.

But I've had difficulty booking tickets - now I realise why. The line is closed - full bus substitution - to resolve flooding issues.

[alpinejohn]

Brief TV report about the project was broadcast yesterday on "London Live TV". Whilst the tests so far appear to confirm the battery 230 can operate the route, it is also reported that the train is headed back to Reading for further work and whilst it is away the charging rails installed at West Ealing will be moved further towards the platform buffer stop. How long Network Rail need for this task is not clear but doubtless completing the necessary testing and paperwork suggests it could be many weeks if not months before the class 230 returns.

Aparrently the current charging rail location is problematic when GWR need two trains to share the platform as they still need to leave a suitable gap between the two trains. No mention of when the battery train might actually start carrying passengers - other than "later this year".

Sort of two steps forward one back...

[spsmiler]

Thanks for the info, but I am now in a quandary - because I saw a report somewhere else (Twitter I think) saying that an ITV TV News report (yesterday 15th March) had informed viewers that the tests had proven satisfactory and the train enters service this coming Monday.

So guess where I was planning to go on Monday?! My camcorder battery is being charged 'right now' as I type this.

[alpinejohn]

The ITVX website article finishes with this wording - so you can read what you like into it...

”GWR is operating its usual service on the Greenford line alongside the trial, but it hopes fare-paying passengers will be able to travel on the battery-powered train during the programme.

That is far from clear when that "hope" might be fulfilled.

At the moment realtime trains listings for Monday services shows that all trains on the Greenford shuttle show as Class 165... If your Twitter contact is "in the know" then presumably that status will change nearer the start of services.

[starlight73]

GWR announced on Twitter/X that the trial begins on Monday 18 March (tomorrow), which may be where the idea about entering passenger service came from.

However, I think their definition of “trial” may be, in my own words: we’ve finished some initial tests to confirm that the train won’t scrape the platform edge or go bang. Now we can run it up and down the branch to clock up miles for approval.

According to another rail forum (shock horror I’ve been reading another forum  ) the train won’t carry passengers until GWR’s drivers are trained on it

spsmiler - I’ve checked Real Time Trains and the 230 was actually moved back to Reading traincare depot on Friday 15 March. It is undergoing “interior finishing”, according to someone who works for the project on that other forum. So unfortunately, the social media launch of the trial does not coincide with the actual train being on the ground! 

[alpinejohn]

Thanks -I had a feeling there were some crossed wires. Hopefully it will save a wasted trip if the 230 is now back in Reading.

[starlight73]

Thanks - and sorry, my last post had a mistake. The train has not yet moved back to Reading and what I saw was a GWR mainline stock move.

I can’t reveal the day it will be moved on here because of forum rules, but it is moving to Reading quite soon. It can either charge in the West Ealing platform, or from slow chargers at West Ealing depot. If the latter, it’s unlikely to be on test next week as it needs to be charged slowly.

[spsmiler]

In light of the possibility of a wasted journey I have not gone to West Ealing today and as I have a busy week I'm unlikely to go there at all this week.

[alpinejohn]

Realtime Trains shows the West Ealing to Greenford public service was operated today by unit 165124.

There does not appear to be any non-passenger service trips by the battery train.

[sweetp]

This Reel (video) regarding the trial has turned up on BBC London's Facebook page this morning: www.facebook.com/reel/422142430336166
Although I'm not entirely sure why they've included a section on the OHLE issues out of Paddington in this.

for those unable to view Facebook, the video is available here: Watch: Inside London’s new battery-powered train

[starlight73]

Nice video! Regarding the BBC video’s statement that some people think there should be electrification instead of battery trains: I suppose yes, it would be ideal to electrify everything, but the cost of that would be enormous. I don’t imagine funding for that would be available any time soon… and it would still take decades to electrify many lines. Speaking as an enthusiast (not a transport professional), I feel like the battery train is a great idea.

230 001 arrived at Reading Traincare depot at 10:00 this morning, and will be there for a few weeks.

[Chris M]

Regarding electrification, the Greenford branch (and the other Thames valley branches) should have been electrified at the same time as the GWML and long term I think that will probably happen. The branch is just being used as a usefully located place to test the technology, which will be more appropriately installed on rural branch lines (e.g. in Cornwall).

[alpinejohn]

The "inside London" video presenter suggests that " passengers may get a chance to ride the battery train "probably in the autumn".

I guess the need to rack up proving mileage and complete driver training and obtain acceptance for its use from the unions is what will take most of that time.

Fundamentally the Class 230 are reworked District Line train shells - and when it comes down to it an electric motor really does not care where/how the power comes from so long as it receives enough of the right sort of electricity.

As for where else they might be deployed I assume there is some desire to provide the greatest environmental benefit to the greatest number of people. Hence they are only likely to deploy battery trains where there is no prospect of OHLE installation starting any time soon, so basically on minor routes in heavily built up areas. My bet is Thames Valley area minor routes might see the technology before more remote routes in the South West.

What is not clear is whether the fast charge technology will now be picked up by one of the major major railway works, and offer some sort of better battery train. Some are now struggling to fill order books! However new stuff is not always better - what passengers want most is reliability. Certainly the Merseyrail trial using a battery train extension to their route has proved to be nightmare so far.

[Dstock7080]

[d7666]

Mar 20, 2024 16:25:11 GMT alpinejohn said:

What is not clear is whether the fast charge technology will now be picked up by one of the major major railway works, and offer some sort of better battery train. Some are now struggling to fill order books! However new stuff is not always better - what passengers want most is reliability. Certainly the Merseyrail trial using a battery train extension to their route has proved to be nightmare so far.

Greenford is THE trial fast charging. This trial is funded by DfT. DfT approves and controls all new main line train orders. DfT is unlikely to sanction a battery train scheme based on fast charging until its own funded trial is complete.

So no-one else is going to order new trains with this technology until the trial is over, and is successful. The 12 mo trial period has just started; IMHO it will be at least 12 mo before any orders for anything like a squadron fleet of anything occur.

It may well be another trial, using 230s, or something else, might happen, but we are a long long way yet from any sort of new train build that would succeed in filling a makers struggling order book. And you can be sure if someone made a small order for a small scale scheme, at least Litchurch Lane works - the only significant GB builder - will whinge as it always does that small orders are not worth it as they always do no matter who owned it after BREL i.e. ADTranz, Bombardier - and now while it is Alstom the same whinings continue to sound from Derby. Which then leaves only non GB based builders.

[spsmiler]

Mar 19, 2024 16:50:06 GMT Chris M said:

Regarding electrification, the Greenford branch (and the other Thames valley branches) should have been electrified at the same time as the GWML and long term I think that will probably happen.

If the branch line is ever electrified would there be a need to install signalling immunisation for Central Line trains in the Greenford station area?

As this is the Vivarail thread I think this might be of related interest - I visited the Island Line on Tuesday 19th March 2024. Only 484 005 was in service and there was an hourly frequency.

I bought a through ticket from Waterloo to Shanklin, I think this was the best option. Certainly it was the easiest.

The foot crossing was about 10 minutes walk from Lake station, walking in the direction of Shanklin station.


Riding an Island Line Class 484 Train On The Isle Of Wight

[d7666]

Mar 23, 2024 21:05:56 GMT spsmiler said:

If the branch line is ever electrified would there be a need to install signalling immunisation for Central Line trains in the Greenford station area?

Not really in my domain and probably others better placed to answer, but, if we are talking about the trains only, these already run into two 25 kV main line stations - Stratford and Ealing Broadway*** - and a possible 3rd location if include Central passing under GWML west of Old Oak Common counts. I would take a punt at this and say no issue as either the trains are already immunised or have no need for it. But this is a guess. And alomost certain to be tested. OTH I would not not like to say the same for Greenford LU signalling infrastructure that may require some local attention. Even then I would suspect LU would demand NR to deliver a 'no impact' solution. Ditto guess. Should 25 kV come ever happen it'll be a known unknown.


*** and maybe the reverse is true at those locations at the present time with 92TS CLIP retraction to VVVF drives might need at least immunisation testing if not work; but that is a subject for another thread.

[d7666]

And for the a.n.other reborn D78 fleet

iwobserver.co.uk/5-trains-have-become-4-and-swr-are-buying-wheels-from-a-scrapyard/

Not going to comment on media reporting but there may be useful gen there.

What is not mentioned there is one 484 is currently not working is actually stopped from flood damage; I'd take a guess and suggest if that 484 had good wheelsets then it will have been cannibalised by now, and it /might/ just be the one reported as "decomissioned". Right now I can't seem to find out which 484 is the alleged flood damaged unit due to conflicting wibble reporting on other forums.


I had a plan - haha - for 2024 to do Greenford 230s and IOW 484s the same day in the first week of 230s public operation wheneve that turns out to be - looking like that receding over the horizon.

[t697]

Perhaps more mildly reworked D78 stock using most of the original equipment, overhauled, would have done the trick for longer after all. Wouldn't have got into trouble with now unsupported traction equipment etc. Just the wheels to puzzle over!

[jimbo]

They aren't the original D78 bogies, which had to be replaced in earlier days due to excess flexibility.

[notverydeep]

It isn't just SWR on the Isle of White. Many operators are having problems sourcing wheel sets, I have heard a colleague assert that a factory in Ukraine was previously a major supplier. However, I don't think this can refer to the Luhansk locomotive works located in Eastern Ukraine (which built many of the Soviet Union's locomotives) as I think this ceased operations some years ago in the earlier phase of the Ukraine conflict, shortly after the annexation of Crimea.

[d7666]

Mar 24, 2024 16:41:05 GMT d7666 said:

Right now I can't seem to find out which 484 is the alleged flood damaged unit due to conflicting wibble reporting on other forums.

484001.

At least 484002 and 484005 have been in service over the past week, on different dates.

[d7666]

In trawling other forums in search of 230/484 gen, it is alleged elsewhere TfW 230s are soon to get both a battery upgrade (to mitigate overheating problems) and diesel engine radiator upgrades (yes, you guessed it, to mitigate overheating problems)..............

[anthony262]

Yes and hopefully it really sorts out their reliability

[brigham]

iwobserver.co.uk/5-trains-have-become-4-and-swr-are-buying-wheels-from-a-scrapyard/
From the tone of the above article, it would seem that the wrong decision was made after all.

Closure would have been the better option.

[spsmiler]

Mar 24, 2024 12:28:35 GMT d7666 said:

Mar 23, 2024 21:05:56 GMT spsmiler said:

If the branch line is ever electrified would there be a need to install signalling immunisation for Central Line trains in the Greenford station area?

Not really in my domain and probably others better placed to answer, but, if we are talking about the trains only, 

Thanks but I was thinking of Central line signalling in the area around Greenford station, not the trains themselves as yes they already run alongside 25kV AC tracks at the two stations you mentioned.