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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 12:05:21 GMT
How annoying.
Sore losers. Sore losers with money.
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Post by snoggle on Jul 23, 2018 14:49:42 GMT
The article only says that Bombardier COULD contest the award. That is their right under Government procurement policy. It doesn't say they will exercise that right, or are even likely to. Bombardier and Hitachi launched a legal battle this morning in the High Court to prevent TfL awarding the contract to Siemens. The outcome of this dispute could also have possible implications for the procurement of rolling stock for High Speed 2. So I see from the Times. Explains the lack of fanfares and people signing contracts despite the "stand still" period having theoretically expired. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/companies-at-war-over-contract-for-tube-trains(behind paywall or logged-in a/c for limited number of articles per week) |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 23, 2018 15:55:33 GMT
Clicking/tapping the link in this tweet takes you to a free article with some info: Click here if embedded tweet fails to display. |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 23, 2018 19:54:56 GMT
The article only says that Bombardier COULD contest the award. That is their right under Government procurement policy. It doesn't say they will exercise that right, or are even likely to. Bombardier and Hitachi launched a legal battle this morning in the High Court to prevent TfL awarding the contract to Siemens. The outcome of this dispute could also have possible implications for the procurement of rolling stock for High Speed 2. Great. More delays! |
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Post by dm1 on Jul 24, 2018 8:20:10 GMT
Bombardier and Hitachi launched a legal battle this morning in the High Court to prevent TfL awarding the contract to Siemens. The outcome of this dispute could also have possible implications for the procurement of rolling stock for High Speed 2. Great. More delays! Whilst frustrating, it's somewhat understandable from Hitachi/Bombardier's perspective. This contract effectively locks them out from decades of train orders (if Siemens doesn't mess up), so why wouldn't they take every avenue open to them to prevent that from happening? |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 24, 2018 8:25:44 GMT
Whilst frustrating, it's somewhat understandable from Hitachi/Bombardier's perspective. This contract effectively locks them out from decades of train orders (if Siemens doesn't mess up), so why wouldn't they take every avenue open to them to prevent that from happening? I do get that. But when you consider that the original timescale was to have the trains being replaced by now, it's very frustrating! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2018 16:10:42 GMT
I understand the idea of this locking other companies out from work long term potentially, but if Siemens did a better job of persuading LU that their product is better etc, then its tough luck for other parties. You should have done a better job with your business case.
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Post by routew15 on Jul 25, 2018 17:50:09 GMT
A question about the bicycles on the Deep Tube lines.
With the new Inspiro trains being walkthrough could bicycles potentially be taken on the Deep Tube Lines during off peak or do restrictions have no relation to walkthrough capability.
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Post by domh245 on Jul 25, 2018 17:55:03 GMT
I'd be doubtful - Bicycles will still take up a lot of space, even on the new stock, and I'm not sure that they would allow the safety reasons (mainly evacuation related as I understand it) behind the restrictions to be relaxed.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 25, 2018 18:44:31 GMT
If any deep level line is anywhere close to allowing bikes in theory would probably be the Jubilee as it has the least stations (Swiss Cottage, St Johns Wood & Baker St) that would prove problematic with the possible exemption of the Waterloo & City although I doubt the cost would be proportional to the benefits.
The only bike friendly cross Zone 1 rail route at the moment is Thameslink which I think has similar rules to TfL, I don’t see any reason why Crossrail shouldn’t follow suit but then again, evacuation protocols may not be so forgiving.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 25, 2018 19:10:54 GMT
If any deep level line is anywhere close to allowing folding bikes at least would probably be the Jubilee as it has the least stations (Swiss Cottage, St Johns Wood & Baker St) that would prove problematic with the possible exemption of the Waterloo & City although I doubt the cost would be proportional to the benefits. Folding bikes are already permitted on the Underground (and Tube lines) at any time. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 25, 2018 19:16:15 GMT
If any deep level line is anywhere close to allowing folding bikes at least would probably be the Jubilee as it has the least stations (Swiss Cottage, St Johns Wood & Baker St) that would prove problematic with the possible exemption of the Waterloo & City although I doubt the cost would be proportional to the benefits. Folding bikes are already permitted on the Underground (and Tube lines) at any time. Apologies Dstock7080 , I was frantically typing over the horizon without checking. Post now amended to make coherent sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2018 21:16:48 GMT
A question about the bicycles on the Deep Tube lines. With the new Inspiro trains being walkthrough could bicycles potentially be taken on the Deep Tube Lines during off peak or do restrictions have no relation to walkthrough capability. What I would like to see on new stock is places to lean like at the end of carrieges on the deep tube or near the centre of the carriage on the jubilee line. I've generally been quite disappointed that with all new stock coming in, there's no good area to lean except perhaps in the interconnecting area between cars. Perhaps if there was a large enough leaning area or tip up seat area along the wall of the carriage, bikes may be permitted as there would still be space to walk by them freely in an evacuation situation. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 25, 2018 22:20:41 GMT
It's not just the trains though, you have to consider getting them to and from the platform as well. No matter what trains are operating I just cannot see bicycles being allowed at stations like Leicester Square. Even with just pedestrians it can be a challenge to exit the platform before the next train arrives in the peak - add in someone navigating a bicycle up and down stairs, round tight corners up escalators through a crowded ticket hall and up a woefully under capacity staircase with a 90° turn half way up (frequently with beggar sat on the landing) and emerging on to a narrow, overcrowded pavement and people will get hurt.
Off peak Canary Wharf Jubilee would be fine with a bicycle, but there are too many people in the peaks. However Bermondsey would be trickier as iirc the passage to the lifts has a couple of tight turns.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 0:18:38 GMT
Honestly a good point I hadn't thought of.
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Post by 100andthirty on Jul 26, 2018 6:38:18 GMT
I understand the idea of this locking other companies out from work long term potentially, but if Siemens did a better job of persuading LU that their product is better etc, then its tough luck for other parties. You should have done a better job with your business case. it's also worth mentioning that the invitation to tender, and the prior discussions with all the potential bidders will have made it absolutely clear that the plan was to place a contract for the Piccadilly line with options for the other lines. The only basis for challenge now is that LU made errors in the evaluation of the bids. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Aug 8, 2018 20:24:22 GMT
Does anyone know where things stand with the commissioning of the Piccadilly Line Interim Control Upgrade (PICU) project? I have not seen any recent announcements about the project although a while back it was suggested that the first part would go live this spring.
Perhaps this is now bundled into something else like the new 4LM control centre?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 8, 2018 20:38:22 GMT
Does anyone know where things stand with the commissioning of the Piccadilly Line Interim Control Upgrade (PICU) project? I have not seen any recent announcements about the project although a while back it was suggested that the first part would go live this spring. Perhaps this is now bundled into something else like the new 4LM control centre? Piccadilly Line service control and signal operation from Cockfosters to Chiswick Park are, since 5 June based at South Kensington. This controls all signalling Barons Court to Chiswick Park. |
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Post by rheostar on Aug 9, 2018 21:07:47 GMT
Does anyone know where things stand with the commissioning of the Piccadilly Line Interim Control Upgrade (PICU) project? I have not seen any recent announcements about the project although a while back it was suggested that the first part would go live this spring. Perhaps this is now bundled into something else like the new 4LM control centre? Piccadilly Line service control and signal operation from Cockfosters to Chiswick Park are, since 5 June based at South Kensington. This controls all signalling Barons Court to Chiswick Park. And it's very nice there too!! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 21:40:27 GMT
Does anyone know where things stand with the commissioning of the Piccadilly Line Interim Control Upgrade (PICU) project? I have not seen any recent announcements about the project although a while back it was suggested that the first part would go live this spring. Perhaps this is now bundled into something else like the new 4LM control centre? Piccadilly Line service control and signal operation from Cockfosters to Chiswick Park are, since 5 June based at South Kensington. This controls all signalling Barons Court to Chiswick Park.
I'm quite interested to hear how it all works if anyone has any more details?
I mean does it still work in basically the same way with control over electronic programme machines etc.?
Or is all more like Wood Green - Cockfosters was at Earls Court with timetable editing
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 27, 2018 10:28:37 GMT
Alstom have now exercised their right of petulance having now also entered the affray at the High court alleging unfair treatment during the tender process stating
"It (Alstom) offered a better price to build a fleet of 94 trains than its German rival".
Meanwhile the Piccadilly will have to put it's pension plans on hold, again...
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Post by t697 on Aug 27, 2018 19:55:06 GMT
Alstom have now exercised their right of petulance having now also entered the affray at the High court alleging unfair treatment during the tender process stating "It (Alstom) offered a better price to build a fleet of 94 trains than its German rival". Does this mean Alstom & Siemens know which way the EU merger investigation will go I wonder. Or just covering all possibilities. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 27, 2018 20:28:28 GMT
Alstom have now exercised their right of petulance having now also entered the affray at the High court alleging unfair treatment during the tender process stating "It (Alstom) offered a better price to build a fleet of 94 trains than its German rival". Does this mean Alstom & Siemens know which way the EU merger investigation will go I wonder. Or just covering all possibilities. Speaking from experience, Alstom have a history of using aggressive legal avenues to effectively cajole municipal transport authorities for various reasons. The last time legal action on this scale was being consulted on was the result of erratic costs of rolling stock manufacturing and a fear of order books becoming empty with various companies (many of which were never named) fighting over what was left. I can't remember if this was even true, but I seem to remember reading that the gap between the S stock rollout and the New Tube for London will be one of the longest absences of new orders in recent times. You could well be right that these companies have acted on the basis that they believe that the EU investigation will most likely find in their favour but that's too large a limb to go out on alone and this is probably the ripples of a much larger chain of events that go far beyond this contract and country even. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 28, 2018 7:25:30 GMT
The order for the D Stock was placed in 1976, not sure when the 1992s were ordered but that's a fairly long gap between orders.
The NTfL title seems to have been quietly but sensibly dropped, its just the Deep Tube Upgrade Program and I assume that the new trains will be know as 201? Tube stock.
Of course had the original tender not been withdrawn in 2010 the new rolling stock would already have been delivered to the Piccadilly and delivery to the Bakerloo would have started this year.
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Post by cudsn15 on Aug 28, 2018 7:52:26 GMT
was the Jubilee 83TS tagged on to the D-stock order then? I know they shared many similarities...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 28, 2018 8:41:52 GMT
The way things are going I expect the next deep tube trains to be 202x stock rather than 201x - even if a manufacturer has a design ready to go 16 months seems optimistic for planned introduction.
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Post by patrickb on Aug 28, 2018 11:22:37 GMT
I seem to remember reading that the gap between the S stock rollout and the New Tube for London will be one of the longest absences of new orders in recent times. A very exaggerated point I think. Yes there will be a gap between orders. Though undoubtedly isn't the longest gap. Rolling Stock across the network remained pretty much unchanged between 1997 and 2010. |
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Post by t697 on Aug 28, 2018 18:52:14 GMT
I seem to remember reading that the gap between the S stock rollout and the New Tube for London will be one of the longest absences of new orders in recent times. A very exaggerated point I think. Yes there will be a gap between orders. Though undoubtedly isn't the longest gap. Rolling Stock across the network remained pretty much unchanged between 1997 and 2010. I am being misquoted. It wasn't me that posted that!! |
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Post by metman on Aug 29, 2018 22:23:39 GMT
was the Jubilee 83TS tagged on to the D-stock order then? I know they shared many similarities... They weren’t that similar but you are right to bring it up with the two batches of 1983 stock being delivered in 1983 and 1988. A great deal of the stock was also refurbished in the 1990s. |
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Post by phil on Aug 29, 2018 22:32:37 GMT
Alstom have now exercised their right of petulance having now also entered the affray at the High court alleging unfair treatment during the tender process stating "It (Alstom) offered a better price to build a fleet of 94 trains than its German rival". Does this mean Alstom & Siemens know which way the EU merger investigation will go I wonder. Or just covering all possibilities.
Its worth remembering there was a similar legal tussle when Eurostar (whose top managent is dominated by the French these days) selected Siemens to provide their new trains.
From Wikipedia:-
Alstom litigation
The nomination of Siemens saw it break into the French high-speed market, as all French and French subsidiary high-speed operators up to that point used TGV derivatives produced by Alstom.[8] Alstom attempted legal action to prevent the contract, claiming that the Siemens sets would breach Channel Tunnel safety rules,[9] but this was thrown out of court.[10] Alstom said that it would "pursue alternative legal options to uphold its position", and on 4 November 2010 it lodged a complaint with the European Commission over the tendering process, which then asked the British government for "clarification".[11] Alstom then announced it had started legal action against Eurostar in the High Court in London.[12] In July 2011, the High Court rejected Alstom's claim that the tender process was "ineffective",[13] and in April 2012 Alstom said it would call off pending court actions against Eurostar[
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