Possible Strike

[class411]

Apr 26, 2021 22:56:36 GMT aslefshrugged said:

3-2-1 we're back in the room

The RMT rep at Loughton has been sacked for failing to attend drugs and alcohol testing although its not that simple.  As I understand it he booked on for work as normal, felt unwell part way through his shift and booked off sick. The D&A team were at Loughton that day, he was among the "random" list of those to be tested but rather than going back to the accommodation block he went straight home. There is a rumour that he stopped off at the Loughton Station Supervisors' office to use the toilet and vomited on the floor (sorry).

What is odd is that normally the D&A team arrive before you book on, your duty is covered by a spare while you are tested and in my 18 years on trains I have never heard of anyone starting their shift then being tested after they've done part of it.

RMT claim that he's been victimised because he's a rep, they held a ballot and on Friday they announced a one day strike at Leytonstone, Loughton, West Ruislip and White City depots with no one booking on between 21:00 Wednesday 5th May 2021 until 20:59 hours on Thursday 6th May 2021. The ballot at Hainault depot did not meet the threshold so they have not been included in the action (45 eligible to vote, only 22 voted so less than 50% already, 12 for strike, 10 against).

And yes, its election day.

As an outsider I'd make the following observation:

You obviously cannot have staff bypassing D&A testing simply by saying they are ill and going home.

On the other hand, if someone is feeling seriously unwell (and you can feel extremely ill from quite trivial causes - especially with food poisoning), you can't expect them to concern themselves with getting a D&A test.

Surely, in a situation such as this, the obvious, sensible, and fair, thing to do would be to send a doctor the the staff member's home to perform the required test (or certify that s/he is genuinely too ill to take it.)

[zbang]

I can easily assume that the D&A people don't want anyone sick in their area anyway.

[North End]

Apr 27, 2021 15:48:18 GMT class411 said:

Apr 26, 2021 22:56:36 GMT aslefshrugged said:

3-2-1 we're back in the room

The RMT rep at Loughton has been sacked for failing to attend drugs and alcohol testing although its not that simple.  As I understand it he booked on for work as normal, felt unwell part way through his shift and booked off sick. The D&A team were at Loughton that day, he was among the "random" list of those to be tested but rather than going back to the accommodation block he went straight home. There is a rumour that he stopped off at the Loughton Station Supervisors' office to use the toilet and vomited on the floor (sorry).

What is odd is that normally the D&A team arrive before you book on, your duty is covered by a spare while you are tested and in my 18 years on trains I have never heard of anyone starting their shift then being tested after they've done part of it.

RMT claim that he's been victimised because he's a rep, they held a ballot and on Friday they announced a one day strike at Leytonstone, Loughton, West Ruislip and White City depots with no one booking on between 21:00 Wednesday 5th May 2021 until 20:59 hours on Thursday 6th May 2021. The ballot at Hainault depot did not meet the threshold so they have not been included in the action (45 eligible to vote, only 22 voted so less than 50% already, 12 for strike, 10 against).

And yes, its election day.

As an outsider I'd make the following observation:

You obviously cannot have staff bypassing D&A testing simply by saying they are ill and going home.

On the other hand, if someone is feeling seriously unwell (and you can feel extremely ill from quite trivial causes - especially with food poisoning), you can't expect them to concern themselves with getting a D&A test.

Surely, in a situation such as this, the obvious, sensible, and fair, thing to do would be to send a doctor the the staff member's home to perform the required test (or certify that s/he is genuinely too ill to take it.)

It's a difficult one, as the official process puts the onus on the manager overseeing the test to determine whether someone is "genuinely ill" or not. Clearly that is putting quite a burden of responsibility on someone who isn't a doctor.

The D&A process isn't quite as watertight as one might think. If D&A are called when there's suspicions and the person books off, it does become a bit of a case of who said what and when, especially if there aren't copious witnesses about - bearing in mind some crew depots can be quite quiet places at certain times of day.

[aslefshrugged]

Apr 27, 2021 19:28:50 GMT North End said:

Apr 27, 2021 15:48:18 GMT class411 said:

As an outsider I'd make the following observation:

You obviously cannot have staff bypassing D&A testing simply by saying they are ill and going home.

On the other hand, if someone is feeling seriously unwell (and you can feel extremely ill from quite trivial causes - especially with food poisoning), you can't expect them to concern themselves with getting a D&A test.

Surely, in a situation such as this, the obvious, sensible, and fair, thing to do would be to send a doctor the the staff member's home to perform the required test (or certify that s/he is genuinely too ill to take it.)

It's a difficult one, as the official process puts the onus on the manager overseeing the test to determine whether someone is "genuinely ill" or not. Clearly that is putting quite a burden of responsibility on someone who isn't a doctor.

The D&A process isn't quite as watertight as one might think. If D&A are called when there's suspicions and the person books off, it does become a bit of a case of who said what and when, especially if there aren't copious witnesses about - bearing in mind some crew depots can be quite quiet places at certain times of day.

As I mentioned the driver had already started his shift and the claim is that he did not know that the D&A team were at Loughton before he booked off sick with - I am told - "Covid-like symptoms".  From memory most Loughton duties have meal reliefs at other depots as Loughton is quite small and doesn't have a canteen so possibly he booked off with the Train Manager at Leytonstone, White City, etc.

As far as sending a D&A team to his home address I believe there are circumstances that allow that but I think at that point BTP would have to be involved.  As for sending a doctor to check if he was really ill I'm not sure that would be legal but even if it was I don't think we have any doctors on the payroll apart from the medical staff at Occupational Health.

[Chris M]

Apr 28, 2021 11:08:35 GMT aslefshrugged said:

so possibly he booked off with the Train Manager at Leytonstone, White City, etc.

Who would I presume be unaware the D&A team were at Loughton?

[aslefshrugged]

Apr 28, 2021 11:18:34 GMT Chris M said:

Apr 28, 2021 11:08:35 GMT aslefshrugged said:

so possibly he booked off with the Train Manager at Leytonstone, White City, etc.

Who would I presume be unaware the D&A team were at Loughton?

Good question.  No idea.  Some TMs seem unsure what's happening at their depot, let alone other depots...

[revupminster]

This sounds like a job for AC12 if DI Steve Arnott can avoid his own drug test. Holy Mary, Joseph, and the wee Donkey.

[class411]

Apr 28, 2021 11:08:35 GMT aslefshrugged said:

Apr 27, 2021 19:28:50 GMT North End said:

It's a difficult one, as the official process puts the onus on the manager overseeing the test to determine whether someone is "genuinely ill" or not. Clearly that is putting quite a burden of responsibility on someone who isn't a doctor.

The D&A process isn't quite as watertight as one might think. If D&A are called when there's suspicions and the person books off, it does become a bit of a case of who said what and when, especially if there aren't copious witnesses about - bearing in mind some crew depots can be quite quiet places at certain times of day.

As I mentioned the driver had already started his shift and the claim is that he did not know that the D&A team were at Loughton before he booked off sick with - I am told - "Covid-like symptoms".  From memory most Loughton duties have meal reliefs at other depots as Loughton is quite small and doesn't have a canteen so possibly he booked off with the Train Manager at Leytonstone, White City, etc.

As far as sending a D&A team to his home address I believe there are circumstances that allow that but I think at that point BTP would have to be involved.  As for sending a doctor to check if he was really ill I'm not sure that would be legal but even if it was I don't think we have any doctors on the payroll apart from the medical staff at Occupational Health.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting sending a doctor to check if he was ill, I suggested sending a doctor to do the test. If said doctor found the person too ill to take the test then that would (should) be good and sufficient reason not to take it.

If tfl don't retain a doctor that's their problem. They should, for these exact circumstances.

It's hardly a situation that should come as a complete surprise.

[North End]

Apr 28, 2021 11:08:35 GMT aslefshrugged said:

Apr 27, 2021 19:28:50 GMT North End said:

It's a difficult one, as the official process puts the onus on the manager overseeing the test to determine whether someone is "genuinely ill" or not. Clearly that is putting quite a burden of responsibility on someone who isn't a doctor.

The D&A process isn't quite as watertight as one might think. If D&A are called when there's suspicions and the person books off, it does become a bit of a case of who said what and when, especially if there aren't copious witnesses about - bearing in mind some crew depots can be quite quiet places at certain times of day.

As I mentioned the driver had already started his shift and the claim is that he did not know that the D&A team were at Loughton before he booked off sick with - I am told - "Covid-like symptoms".  From memory most Loughton duties have meal reliefs at other depots as Loughton is quite small and doesn't have a canteen so possibly he booked off with the Train Manager at Leytonstone, White City, etc.

As far as sending a D&A team to his home address I believe there are circumstances that allow that but I think at that point BTP would have to be involved.  As for sending a doctor to check if he was really ill I'm not sure that would be legal but even if it was I don't think we have any doctors on the payroll apart from the medical staff at Occupational Health.

As I say, a lot rests on who said what to who, and when, and who saw it. The process is not nearly as black & white as one might think at first glance.

There was a can of worms in my area a couple of years ago which was very difficult to square up.

[class411]

Apr 28, 2021 18:36:35 GMT North End said:

Apr 28, 2021 11:08:35 GMT aslefshrugged said:

As I mentioned the driver had already started his shift and the claim is that he did not know that the D&A team were at Loughton before he booked off sick with - I am told - "Covid-like symptoms".  From memory most Loughton duties have meal reliefs at other depots as Loughton is quite small and doesn't have a canteen so possibly he booked off with the Train Manager at Leytonstone, White City, etc.

As far as sending a D&A team to his home address I believe there are circumstances that allow that but I think at that point BTP would have to be involved.  As for sending a doctor to check if he was really ill I'm not sure that would be legal but even if it was I don't think we have any doctors on the payroll apart from the medical staff at Occupational Health.

As I say, a lot rests on who said what to who, and when, and who saw it. The process is not nearly as black & white as one might think at first glance.

There was a can of worms in my area a couple of years ago which was very difficult to square up.

I think the salient point, particularly with respect to strike action*, is that LU hold all the cards and have the ability to set up whatever (legal) procedures and protocols they wish.

If they fail to set up the procedures in such a way that they have non-ambiguous, grey, situations occurring, it is morally and (almost certainly) legally, egregiously wrong to shift the blame to employees who had no power to set the procedures, and sack them.

If LU do not have robust procedures in place to handle all contingencies without clear injustices, they are failing, and failing seriously. This is particularly worrying in such a safety critical situation as this.


* As the employee may still have lost their livelihood, even if they succeed at an employment tribunal.

[Chris M]

I think it is unreasonable to expect any system to have procedures that completely eliminate all ambiguous situations. What isn't unreasonable to expect is defined procedures to resolve disputes following ambiguous situations - I don't know whether these exist or not.

[class411]

Apr 29, 2021 13:33:59 GMT Chris M said:

I think it is unreasonable to expect any system to have procedures that completely eliminate all ambiguous situations. What isn't unreasonable to expect is defined procedures to resolve disputes following ambiguous situations - I don't know whether these exist or not.

I'm glad you don't work in aviation software development!

Seriously, though, it is true that there will always be outlier situations that haven't been thought of, and, as you say, the ability to resolve the problems fairly is then critical.

However, in this case, there are two things that are very clearly known:

1) It is imperative that D&A tests are carried out.
2) People get ill with little or no warning.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect that LU should have realised that, at some point, these two facts would come into conflict.

And as this has got as far as the 'possible strike' thread, it seems pretty clear that whatever procedures they have used in this case are probably not satisfactory.

[Chris M]

In the aviation software world, what happens when the system encounters a situation it cannot resolve (e.g. due to ambiguity) is it disengages and tells the humans to take control.

Not having procedures, not having satisfactory procedures and not following procedures (satisfactory or otherwise) correctly are three very different scenarios.

[class411]

Apr 29, 2021 17:03:28 GMT Chris M said:

In the aviation software world, what happens when the system encounters a situation it cannot resolve (e.g. due to ambiguity) is it disengages and tells the humans to take control.

That's only partly true, and even where it is, finding yourself in an unusual and potentially dangerous situation and having your systems throw their hands up and say 'we can't handle this, you'll have to deal with it yourselves' is not an acceptable outcome. There would be very major repercussions such as grounding affected fleets, if the problem was in an aircraft's systems, or diverting planes to alternative airfields if in ATC (air traffic control) systems. The costs involved could easily run into the hundreds of millions.

It also doesn't help if the system is not aware that it is behaving in a dangerous manner (e.g. 737 max); it could and did kill hundreds.

Not having procedures, not having satisfactory procedures and not following procedures (satisfactory or otherwise) correctly are three very different scenarios.

Indeed, and I think that sacking someone because of corollary aspects of illness does, prima facie, indicate that LU failed in at least two of those.

[tfn]

General Email came through from TfL of strike action.

"A strike is planned by RMT operators on the Central line all day on Thursday 6 May.

If the strike goes ahead, customers should complete their journeys on the Central line by 23:30 on Wednesday 5 May. There will be no service in central London on the Central line on Thursday 6 May.

We plan to run as many trains as we can but there is likely to be severe disruption."

[aslefshrugged]

The Evening Standard have woken up, probably got a press release from TfL

Not sure about "customers should complete their journeys on the Central line by 23:30 on Wednesday 5 May", all the Hainault night turns will be booking on and I think 3 of the 4 Leytonstone nights are ASLEF so I don't see why we would need to cancel any trains.

Management do seem to eager to stop the service early whenever there's a strike on, almost as if they want to inconvenience passengers...

[brigham]

Nice to have management support...

[Dstock7080]

The RMT action on 6 May has been suspended

[hobbayne]

May 1, 2021 16:12:12 GMT Dstock7080 said:

The RMT action on 6 May has been suspended

The RMT want to extend the action beyond the Central Line, and ballot the entire underground apparently.

[aslefshrugged]

That's not what the internal email said, rather RMT wanted more discussion.

Expanding the strike makes no sense, If they can't get Hainault to go on strike why would they imagine they could get other lines to do so?

[nig]

May 2, 2021 10:19:58 GMT aslefshrugged said:

That's not what the internal email said, rather RMT wanted more discussion.

Expanding the strike makes no sense, If they can't get Hainault to go on strike why would they imagine they could get other lines to do so?

RMT letter says they are already in process of preparing a ballot for all train operators and focus our efforts on gettinget a clear Mandaette from membership but doesn't actually say just for him .
Also they got a meeting with Andy lord to discuss him this week

[holborncentral]

Apr 27, 2021 15:48:18 GMT class411 said:

Apr 26, 2021 22:56:36 GMT aslefshrugged said:

3-2-1 we're back in the room

The RMT rep at Loughton has been sacked for failing to attend drugs and alcohol testing although its not that simple.  As I understand it he booked on for work as normal, felt unwell part way through his shift and booked off sick. The D&A team were at Loughton that day, he was among the "random" list of those to be tested but rather than going back to the accommodation block he went straight home. There is a rumour that he stopped off at the Loughton Station Supervisors' office to use the toilet and vomited on the floor (sorry).

What is odd is that normally the D&A team arrive before you book on, your duty is covered by a spare while you are tested and in my 18 years on trains I have never heard of anyone starting their shift then being tested after they've done part of it.

RMT claim that he's been victimised because he's a rep, they held a ballot and on Friday they announced a one day strike at Leytonstone, Loughton, West Ruislip and White City depots with no one booking on between 21:00 Wednesday 5th May 2021 until 20:59 hours on Thursday 6th May 2021. The ballot at Hainault depot did not meet the threshold so they have not been included in the action (45 eligible to vote, only 22 voted so less than 50% already, 12 for strike, 10 against).

And yes, its election day.

As an outsider I'd make the following observation:

You obviously cannot have staff bypassing D&A testing simply by saying they are ill and going home.

On the other hand, if someone is feeling seriously unwell (and you can feel extremely ill from quite trivial causes - especially with food poisoning), you can't expect them to concern themselves with getting a D&A test.

Surely, in a situation such as this, the obvious, sensible, and fair, thing to do would be to send a doctor the the staff member's home to perform the required test (or certify that s/he is genuinely too ill to take it.)

I'm an outsider as well (my job involves scribing for students!). I have to agree with this. I understand that D&A tests are important and people cannot bypass them, however we're in a pandemic and it's better to be safe than sorry just in case it's Covid. A few months back our health officials in Ireland told people who had flu like symptoms to assume it was Covid until they got a test result and to stay home if they were sick. Just my 2 cents

[rheostar]

Apr 26, 2021 22:56:36 GMT aslefshrugged said:

What is odd is that normally the D&A team arrive before you book on, your duty is covered by a spare while you are tested and in my 18 years on trains I have never heard of anyone starting their shift then being tested after they've done part of it.

The D&A team could turn up at any time of the day. The last one I took part in, they turned up around 11:00 and stayed until 16:00, carrying out tests on available staff on both the early and late shifts.

[aslefshrugged]

Apr 27, 2021 11:45:54 GMT aslefshrugged said:

I have realised that as a "late" the D&A are always going to be there before I book on but that wouldn't be the case with "dead earlies".

6 years, 8 months and 12 days to retirement but the brain is already slowing down...

You missed this bit the next day




Yesterday mylondon.news website cut-and-paste the Evening Standard article announcing the strike from last week, two days after it was called off

www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/london-underground-central-line-strike-20512548

London seriously needs a proper news service!

[hobbayne]

My London do not have reporters in the actual sense.
Their newsgathering service consists of youngsters in their bedrooms trawling the internet and social media for anything to put on their website.
Hence the lack of proper journalism.

[DWS]

May 1, 2021 16:12:12 GMT Dstock7080 said:

The RMT action on 6 May has been suspended

Looked at the RMT website today and it says the strike is still on.

[aslefshrugged]

The article on the RMT website is dated Friday 30 April and the management bulletin saying its suspended was Saturday 1 May but according to all the RMT members inc. one of the reps I've spoken to they all say its off


I have been told that LU MD Andy Lord will have a sit down with newly elected RMT Gen Sec Mick Lynch (ex-electrician on Eurostar) to discuss the matter but that could just be mess-room banter

[DWS]

May 4, 2021 18:37:44 GMT aslefshrugged said:

The article on the RMT website is dated Friday 30 April and the management bulletin saying its suspended was Saturday 1 May but according to all the RMT members inc. one of the reps I've spoken to they all say its off


I have been told that LU MD Andy Lord will have a sit down with newly elected RMT Gen Sec Mick Lynch (ex-electrician on Eurostar) to discuss the matter but that could just be mess-room banter

City AM newspaper on Tuesday 4 May has article that says the strike has been called off for talks with management.

[commuter]

Apr 26, 2021 22:56:36 GMT aslefshrugged said:

What is odd is that normally the D&A team arrive before you book on, your duty is covered by a spare while you are tested and in my 18 years on trains I have never heard of anyone starting their shift then being tested after they've done part of it.

When I were a manager responsible for train crew this was quite commonplace. They would most certainly not turn up at 4.45a.m. for example {unless it was to meet a specific member of staff either as part of the treatment plan or upon request of the local manager in the case of for cause testing} + therefore for example early turns would be pulled off part way through after they had already picked up.

[hobbayne]

RMT are now balloting all their drivers for strike action, while ASLEF agree to the night tubers who want full time can now get it.
www.cityam.com/re-elected-khan-already-caught-in-the-middle-as-rmt-union-threatens-tube-strike-over-night-tube-jobs/?fbclid=IwAR2RG-eGDGD9Sps6K97lYsU2JL6Ln-9IE8htU4hWTWDShgo5AHS9EpYbEPY