Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,773
|
Post by Chris M on Sept 19, 2020 3:13:36 GMT
So how many members voted yes? How many government employees, because that's what they are in a nationalised industry. I bet it's a fraction of the pit workers in the 1970's. For example say 2000 members' 70% voted = 1400, 95% yes = 1330. why do you need to know the numbers its completely irrelevant just more drivers that are Aslef members voted yes than Aslef drivers that didn't vote or voted no that's how voting works well of course it wont be as many as pit workers as there was a lot more of them then underground drivers On 6 January 2018 there were 3929 "London Underground drivers", the figure today will be broadly similar (it is not specified whether or not this includes night tube drivers). In March this year it was reported by My London (whose reliability I don't know) that ASLEF represent 2,500 tube drivers, but this will be an approximate figure (in a press release about the Covid bailout, the union simply claimed to represent "most" drivers). If we assume that all of those approximately 2,500 drivers were eligible to vote, and that 70% of them voted in favour then as a ballpark figure 1750 people voted for strike action, or nearly half of all drivers. In 1970 290,000 people were employed in the coal mining industry in the UK. Most, but not all, would have been miners. This means that total number of London Underground drivers are equivalent to only slightly more than 1% of the 1970s coal mining industry so the two are not comparable in the slightest. |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Sept 19, 2020 5:48:32 GMT
^ Of course it's comparable. On your figures who has the most power 290,000 miners or 1750 drivers? I would have thought the former but we all know......
|
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Sept 19, 2020 7:24:29 GMT
Back in the day, the miners had the power to stop EVERYTHING, and in 1926 they did.
It's a different situation now. The last bouts of pit strikes affected the miners and the police, everyone else carried on as usual.
A mere 1750 employees can cause far more disruption today. Best to get it over with while services are already disrupted.
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,746 
|
Post by class411 on Sept 19, 2020 8:07:44 GMT
Best to get it over with while services are already disrupted. You keep saying that as if no one in ASLEF is capable of strategic thought. (Of course, that may be the case; I have no way of knowing.) |
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,746
|
Post by class411 on Sept 19, 2020 8:09:58 GMT
On your figures who has the most power 290,000 miners or 1750 drivers? I would have thought the former but we all know...... Well, since the miners no longer exist, obviously the latter. But for the life of me I still can't see the point you are trying to make. |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 19, 2020 8:28:38 GMT
Back in the day, the miners had the power to stop EVERYTHING, and in 1926 they did. It's a different situation now. The last bouts of pit strikes affected the miners and the police, everyone else carried on as usual. A mere 1750 employees can cause far more disruption today. Best to get it over with while services are already disrupted. The 1974 miners strike brought about the 3 day week and the collapse of Edward Heath's government, not quite "everyone else carried on as usual". Before the 1984 miners strike the Thatcher government stockpiled coal and during the strike were importing from East Germany, Poland, etc. By the end supplies were running out and if the strike had carried on we could have had 1970s style power cuts. We're not going to "get it over with while services are already disrupted", like Thatcher we've "stockpiled" a strike in case management try to impose changes without negotiation. |
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Sept 19, 2020 10:03:40 GMT
Back in the day, the miners had the power to stop EVERYTHING, and in 1926 they did. It's a different situation now. The last bouts of pit strikes affected the miners and the police, everyone else carried on as usual. A mere 1750 employees can cause far more disruption today. Best to get it over with while services are already disrupted. The 1974 miners strike brought about the 3 day week and the collapse of Edward Heath's government, not quite "everyone else carried on as usual". Before the 1984 miners strike the Thatcher government stockpiled coal and during the strike were importing from East Germany, Poland, etc. By the end supplies were running out and if the strike had carried on we could have had 1970s style power cuts. We're not going to "get it over with while services are already disrupted", like Thatcher we've "stockpiled" a strike in case management try to impose changes without negotiation. And the mining industry was decimated, miners out of work, never to return. But how did their general secretary come out of it?  |
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
|
Post by rincew1nd on Sept 19, 2020 10:22:58 GMT
We don't do politics, that includes the relationship between unions and governments. Furthermore the history of the miners' strikes is off topic for this forum.
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 19, 2020 11:23:02 GMT
We don't do politics, that includes the relationship between unions and governments. Furthermore the history of the miners' strikes is off topic for this forum. Its a bit hard to separate this strike from politics when a government review into TfL's finances could result in management attempting to impose changes to our T&Cs and the Prime Minister publicly states that the Tube should "not be the prisoners of the unions". And if there are historically inaccurate comments on here then I am going to challenge them. |
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
|
Post by rincew1nd on Sept 19, 2020 13:26:08 GMT
Its a bit hard to separate this strike from politics when a government review into TfL's finances could result in management attempting to impose changes to our T&Cs and the Prime Minister publicly states that the Tube should "not be the prisoners of the unions". I take your point, the dearly departed snoggle was particularly good at treading the line on this. We should focus on the strike itself and any potential impact on the network. Again fair, but we shouldn't be bringing historical matters into this thread. |
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Sept 19, 2020 21:22:15 GMT
We don't do politics, that includes the relationship between unions and governments. Furthermore the history of the miners' strikes is off topic for this forum. Its a bit hard to separate this strike from politics when a government review into TfL's finances could result in management attempting to impose changes to our T&Cs and the Prime Minister publicly states that the Tube should "not be the prisoners of the unions". And if there are historically inaccurate comments on here then I am going to challenge them. It is unfortunately very difficult to fully sanitise politics from discussion relating to LU, as unfortunately the two are inextricably linked. It’s always been the case, but is even more the case with the mayoral link. If only the politicians would stay out of LU business, but unfortunately if anything were heading the other way on that. |
|
|
|
Post by bassmike on Sept 20, 2020 16:20:08 GMT
If only the politicians would stay out of all business
|
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Sept 20, 2020 17:24:04 GMT
If only the politicians would stay out of all business Luckily the politicians and civil servants did not have their fingers in food supply and distribution. Tesco, Sainsbury and all the other supermarkets showed the working of the free market. Everything government gets involved in goes pear shaped. Boris has become a reluctant dictator and cannot do the job. When the GLC were given control of London Transport it became political with every election the buying of the pensioners vote. |
|
|
|
Post by philthetube on Sept 20, 2020 17:48:04 GMT
unfortunately TFL needs politicians to fund them, so no hope of keeping politics out.
|
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 20, 2020 18:52:43 GMT
Luckily the politicians and civil servants did not have their fingers in food supply and distribution. Tesco, Sainsbury and all the other supermarkets showed the working of the free market. I beg to differ. Although registered as clinically vulnerable, I know of someone who was unable to get any supermarket to deliver groceries until two months after lockdown started and had to rely on neighbours. Spare computer battery, soldering iron, roof bars for the car, OO gauge West Country Pacific: no problem. Groceries? Not a hope. |
|
|
|
Post by 35b on Sept 21, 2020 7:20:07 GMT
Luckily the politicians and civil servants did not have their fingers in food supply and distribution. Tesco, Sainsbury and all the other supermarkets showed the working of the free market. I beg to differ. Although registered as clinically vulnerable, I know of someone who was unable to get any supermarket to deliver groceries until two months after lockdown started and had to rely on neighbours. Spare computer battery, soldering iron, roof bars for the car, OO gauge West Country Pacific: no problem. Groceries? Not a hope. The key point being that the supermarkets had a massive and unforecastable demand shock, and were scrambling to cope, which they now have. Compare that to test and trace, where reports over the weekend suggest basic automation is impossible due to use of many different tube sizes, and I think the original point holds. However, reverting somewhat to the topic of the strike ballot and the role of politicians, provision of transport is always political, whatever structure exists. That includes the railways pre-1914, when fully private. |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 21, 2020 8:36:23 GMT
If only the politicians would stay out of all business Luckily the politicians and civil servants did not have their fingers in food supply and distribution. Tesco, Sainsbury and all the other supermarkets showed the working of the free market. Everything government gets involved in goes pear shaped. Boris has become a reluctant dictator and cannot do the job. When the GLC were given control of London Transport it became political with every election the buying of the pensioners vote. Food supply and distribution wouldn't be possible without the road and rail network provided. maintained and paid for by national and local government. See, those pesky politicians and civil servants get in everywhere! |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 21, 2020 8:42:53 GMT
If only the politicians would stay out of all business If the politicians stayed out of business a lot more people would have been on the dole instead of on furlough |
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,746
|
Post by class411 on Sept 21, 2020 9:03:21 GMT
Luckily the politicians and civil servants did not have their fingers in food supply and distribution. Tesco, Sainsbury and all the other supermarkets showed the working of the free market. Everything government gets involved in goes pear shaped. Boris has become a reluctant dictator and cannot do the job. When the GLC were given control of London Transport it became political with every election the buying of the pensioners vote. Food supply and distribution wouldn't be possible without the road and rail network provided. maintained and paid for by national and local government. See, those pesky politicians and civil servants get in everywhere! If only the politicians would stay out of all business If the politicians stayed out of business a lot more people would have been on the dole instead of on furlough I think it's the micro management that is the problem. It's the same with education. We expect politicians to guide the general direction of these and other things; that's how a democracy tries to ensure that the people can have some control over what affects them. It's when they start meddling in the detail of which they have no understanding that things go pear shaped. |
|
|
|
Post by bassmike on Oct 7, 2020 15:53:56 GMT
If only the politicians would stay out of all business If the politicians stayed out of business a lot more people would have been on the dole instead of on furlough It's due a lot to the politicians that we are in this mess to start with |
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Oct 7, 2020 17:26:30 GMT
I'm not sure that a world 'flu epidemic can be blamed on the politicians.
Unless it IS a covert germ-warfare attack after all...
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 7, 2020 20:22:31 GMT
If the politicians stayed out of business a lot more people would have been on the dole instead of on furlough It's due a lot to the politicians that we are in this mess to start with Our politicians are elected so the voters are responsible ..()Not sure what any of this has to do with ASLEF's strike ballot but some people on this this forum love to digress... |
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
|
Post by rincew1nd on Oct 7, 2020 21:47:38 GMT
Indeed. On topic please.
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 26, 2021 22:56:36 GMT
3-2-1 we're back in the room
The RMT rep at Loughton has been sacked for failing to attend drugs and alcohol testing although its not that simple. As I understand it he booked on for work as normal, felt unwell part way through his shift and booked off sick. The D&A team were at Loughton that day, he was among the "random" list of those to be tested but rather than going back to the accommodation block he went straight home. There is a rumour that he stopped off at the Loughton Station Supervisors' office to use the toilet and vomited on the floor (sorry).
What is odd is that normally the D&A team arrive before you book on, your duty is covered by a spare while you are tested and in my 18 years on trains I have never heard of anyone starting their shift then being tested after they've done part of it.
RMT claim that he's been victimised because he's a rep, they held a ballot and on Friday they announced a one day strike at Leytonstone, Loughton, West Ruislip and White City depots with no one booking on between 21:00 Wednesday 5th May 2021 until 20:59 hours on Thursday 6th May 2021. The ballot at Hainault depot did not meet the threshold so they have not been included in the action (45 eligible to vote, only 22 voted so less than 50% already, 12 for strike, 10 against).
And yes, its election day.
|
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Apr 27, 2021 7:36:08 GMT
I think I can identify with that driver.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 27, 2021 9:17:12 GMT
What is odd is that normally the D&A team arrive before you book on, your duty is covered by a spare while you are tested and in my 18 years on trains I have never heard of anyone starting their shift then being tested after they've done part of it. In my short experience with random testing is the opposite, either being spare at the depot or taken off train and asked to report back, usually with no reason given. |
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Apr 27, 2021 9:27:57 GMT
3-2-1 we're back in the room The RMT rep at Loughton has been sacked for failing to attend drugs and alcohol testing although its not that simple. As I understand it he booked on for work as normal, felt unwell part way through his shift and booked off sick. The D&A team were at Loughton that day, he was among the "random" list of those to be tested but rather than going back to the accommodation block he went straight home. There is a rumour that he stopped off at the Loughton Station Supervisors' office to use the toilet and vomited on the floor (sorry). What is odd is that normally the D&A team arrive before you book on, your duty is covered by a spare while you are tested and in my 18 years on trains I have never heard of anyone starting their shift then being tested after they've done part of it. RMT claim that he's been victimised because he's a rep, they held a ballot and on Friday they announced a one day strike at Leytonstone, Loughton, West Ruislip and White City depots with no one booking on between 21:00 Wednesday 5th May 2021 until 20:59 hours on Thursday 6th May 2021. The ballot at Hainault depot did not meet the threshold so they have not been included in the action (45 eligible to vote, only 22 voted so less than 50% already, 12 for strike, 10 against). And yes, its election day. I can’t speak for everywhere, however I’ve certainly seen D&A happen with people simply taken off their train - in some cases simply finding a spare on the platform and the driver being told “the DMT wants to see you”. No doubt on occasions this might be followed with “I think the D&A people are here”, but certainly not a given on that. Generally the management will be supplied with a list of names (which the management themselves can be on), and the objective is to test as many people as possible who are on that list without causing a delay or cancellation. |
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,348
Member is Online
|
Post by Colin on Apr 27, 2021 10:48:12 GMT
I have also witnessed drivers taken off their second half for testing.
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 27, 2021 11:45:54 GMT
I have realised that as a "late" the D&A are always going to be there before I book on but that wouldn't be the case with "dead earlies".
6 years, 8 months and 12 days to retirement but the brain is already slowing down...
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Apr 27, 2021 14:56:39 GMT
I have realised that as a "late" the D&A are always going to be there before I book on but that wouldn't be the case with "dead earlies". Nail hit on head there I suspect. Late turn staff generally get a refined experience in a number of ways! :-) |
|
