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Post by superteacher on Dec 22, 2018 20:03:32 GMT
You often get the “all drivers do is sit and do nothing all day” comments, often fuelled by irrrsponsible journalism., which is unhelpful stereotyping.
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Post by drainrat on Dec 22, 2018 20:13:30 GMT
Yes, indeed, I did want to say this, but sound like a stuck record (to myself). And stereotyping is a huge part of the decision making from all sides.
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Post by sawb on Aug 17, 2019 8:57:59 GMT
Presumably includes the Waterloo & City line as on previous strike dates?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 17, 2019 10:07:49 GMT
Presumably includes the Waterloo & City line as on previous strike dates? Indeed it is. |
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Post by nig on Aug 17, 2019 11:12:29 GMT
victoria line also been announced by RMT
20:00hrs on Thursday 29 th August until 20:00hrs on Friday 30 th August 2019.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 17, 2019 12:20:32 GMT
We now have three identically-titled threads about possible strike action by RMT train operators on the same dates in late August 2019. While they are each in a single line board, this is getting confusing for those of us who use "recent threads" to keep up with the forum. Would it be possible to adjust the thread titles and/or leave these threads as pointers to a single discussion about the strike actions? Do we know what they propose striking for? |
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 17, 2019 13:32:06 GMT
We now have three identically-titled threads about possible strike action by RMT train operators on the same dates in late August 2019. While they are each in a single line board, this is getting confusing for those of us who use "recent threads" to keep up with the forum. Would it be possible to adjust the thread titles and/or leave these threads as pointers to a single discussion about the strike actions? Do we know what they propose striking for? For the Central line, it's the persistent issue of understaffing, relying on overtime is no long term solution hence why cancellations are more common than ever. This, coupled with some fairly high profile cavalier antics from management meant that it was only a matter of time before we would see strike action. These issues, have been brewing for over a year now, in fact, I think the staffing numbers shortfall was predicted as far back as 2014. |
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 17, 2019 13:58:18 GMT
Have any new Train Operators been recruited anywhere? I haven’t heard of any for ages and presumably if some Night Tube operators are transferring to ‘daytime’ working, there must be gaps there too.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 17, 2019 14:11:56 GMT
Have any new Train Operators been recruited anywhere? I haven’t heard of any for ages and presumably if some Night Tube operators are transferring to ‘daytime’ working, there must be gaps there too. I think aslefshrugged mentioned on Twitter that they may have taken on some new recruits, so maybe he could confirm. |
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Post by drainrat on Aug 17, 2019 16:01:40 GMT
Most coming through are either cross transfers from other depots and lines, or night tube (to23 contracts) becoming full time day drivers (to21 contracts)
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 17, 2019 16:03:41 GMT
Do we know what they propose striking for? For the Central line, it's the persistent issue of understaffing, relying on overtime is no long term solution hence why cancellations are more common than ever. This, coupled with some fairly high profile cavalier antics from management meant that it was only a matter of time before we would see strike action. These issues, have been brewing for over a year now, in fact, I think the staffing numbers shortfall was predicted as far back as 2014. Thank you for that. |
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Post by SunSeeker on Aug 17, 2019 16:11:19 GMT
New NT Train Op recruitment campaign begins next month so hopefully that will increase overall driver numbers. It will be internal only, which personally I think is a good thing.
On the topic of strikes I wish the unions would hurry up and ballot us all to strike over the pay deal as the offers from the company are a joke.
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Post by drainrat on Aug 17, 2019 16:38:37 GMT
I can understand why they haven't just yet 😉
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Aug 17, 2019 19:20:21 GMT
Do we know what they propose striking for? For the Central line, it's the persistent issue of understaffing, relying on overtime is no long term solution hence why cancellations are more common than ever. This, coupled with some fairly high profile cavalier antics from management meant that it was only a matter of time before we would see strike action. These issues, have been brewing for over a year now, in fact, I think the staffing numbers shortfall was predicted as far back as 2014. Train operators on London Underground are not allowed by the Trade Unions to work on Rest days, where do you get the idea that the service is run by relying on Overtime ? |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 17, 2019 19:41:16 GMT
Increased overtime is no doubt being incurred where drivers are asked to stable trains when the relief driver isn’t available,
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 17, 2019 22:04:15 GMT
For the Central line, it's the persistent issue of understaffing, relying on overtime is no long term solution hence why cancellations are more common than ever. This, coupled with some fairly high profile cavalier antics from management meant that it was only a matter of time before we would see strike action. These issues, have been brewing for over a year now, in fact, I think the staffing numbers shortfall was predicted as far back as 2014. Train operators on London Underground are not allowed by the Trade Unions to work on Rest days, where do you get the idea that the service is run by relying on Overtime ? That’s exactly the point. A service isn’t being run, it’s just been allowed to degrade to the point where drivers are maxing out on their hours with little or no buffer room. That is sewing vulnerabilities into day to day operations which then exasperates the fall out from other forms of service disruption. It’s an issue not solely contained to LU, it’s becoming a worryingly common occurrence that I have to deal with for coach services. |
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Post by drainrat on Aug 18, 2019 8:03:48 GMT
For the Central line, it's the persistent issue of understaffing, relying on overtime is no long term solution hence why cancellations are more common than ever. This, coupled with some fairly high profile cavalier antics from management meant that it was only a matter of time before we would see strike action. These issues, have been brewing for over a year now, in fact, I think the staffing numbers shortfall was predicted as far back as 2014. Train operators on London Underground are not allowed by the Trade Unions to work on Rest days, where do you get the idea that the service is run by relying on Overtime ? Not correct, it's the Professional Train Operator Agreement (PTOA) that is agreed by the trade unions (via branch/district processes) and management. It's not the trade unions that don't allow it, and let's not forget, the TUs aren't a separate entity to the drivers who belong to them, they are the Union and the union represents them. As for overtime, goldenarrow is correct. Obviously we've both observed the same thing where there's becoming a reliance on overtime, and often it's refused by the driver so the train goes to the depot/siding, leaving the service 'thinner'. There used to be a time where you'd be told to stable it on the trip before handing over, now they often keep quiet until a couple stations before, in hope you'll accept the overtime, thus, what may've been an Epping service, then becomes a Woodford service at Leytonstone, and passengers quite rightly getting more and more annoyed. Trouble is, as I've pointed out many times in these threads, stereotyping is an important point to understand in this, and the drivers have been stereotyped as public enemy #1 for many years, and so must be to blame, but the reality of it rarely comes to light, because the real villains are seldom shown in a bad light 🙄 |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 18, 2019 8:22:07 GMT
Train operators on London Underground are not allowed by the Trade Unions to work on Rest days, where do you get the idea that the service is run by relying on Overtime ? Not correct, it's the Professional Train Operator Agreement (PTOA) that is agreed by the trade unions (via branch/district processes) and management. It's not the trade unions that don't allow it, and let's not forget, the TUs aren't a separate entity to the drivers who belong to them, they are the Union and the union represents them. As for overtime, goldenarrow is correct. Obviously we've both observed the same thing where there's becoming a reliance on overtime, and often it's refused by the driver so the train goes to the depot/siding, leaving the service 'thinner'. There used to be a time where you'd be told to stable it on the trip before handing over, now they often keep quiet until a couple stations before, in hope you'll accept the overtime, thus, what may've been an Epping service, then becomes a Woodford service at Leytonstone, and passengers quite rightly getting more and more annoyed. Trouble is, as I've pointed out many times in these threads, stereotyping is an important point to understand in this, and the drivers have been stereotyped as public enemy #1 for many years, and so must be to blame, but the reality of it rarely comes to light, because the real villains are seldom shown in a bad light 🙄 How rigid is the 4 hours and 15 minutes maximum driving time? Are drivers being asked to exceed this? , |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 18, 2019 8:27:49 GMT
On the topic of strikes I wish the unions would hurry up and ballot us all to strike over the pay deal as the offers from the company are a joke. In over 20 years of working on the Tube and over 15 years as a TOp I have never been balloted for strike action over pay so I wouldn't hold your breath. I remember it once took around 18 months to negotiate a pay deal and they've only been at it eight months this time. |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Aug 18, 2019 8:33:16 GMT
Train operators on London Underground are not allowed by the Trade Unions to work on Rest days, where do you get the idea that the service is run by relying on Overtime ? Not correct, it's the Professional Train Operator Agreement (PTOA) that is agreed by the trade unions (via branch/district processes) and management. It's not the trade unions that don't allow it, and let's not forget, the TUs aren't a separate entity to the drivers who belong to them, they are the Union and the union represents them. As for overtime, goldenarrow is correct. Obviously we've both observed the same thing where there's becoming a reliance on overtime, and often it's refused by the driver so the train goes to the depot/siding, leaving the service 'thinner'. There used to be a time where you'd be told to stable it on the trip before handing over, now they often keep quiet until a couple stations before, in hope you'll accept the overtime, thus, what may've been an Epping service, then becomes a Woodford service at Leytonstone, and passengers quite rightly getting more and more annoyed. Trouble is, as I've pointed out many times in these threads, stereotyping is an important point to understand in this, and the drivers have been stereotyped as public enemy #1 for many years, and so must be to blame, but the reality of it rarely comes to light, because the real villains are seldom shown in a bad light 🙄 I am well aware of the Professional Train Operator Aggreement on LUL. However look at Rest Day Working on Train Operating Companies ( TOC's) on Network Rail, ASLEF the main Trade Union have agreements with TOC's for Train Driivers to work rest days. Not all TOCs have rest day working and those that do, it is controlled by ASLEF. I know of LUL Train Operators who drive Rail Replacement Buses of their days off, with the knowledge of management. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 18, 2019 8:52:16 GMT
I believe most of the TOCs where drivers are allowed to work their rest days have 4-day weeks with Sundays "outside" the roster.
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Aug 18, 2019 9:48:48 GMT
I believe most of the TOCs where drivers are allowed to work their rest days have 4-day weeks with Sundays "outside" the roster. Full details of this can be found on ASLEF website, which has a section on pay and conditions for all TOCs including London Underground. It also says agreement for Train Operators has been re-written and called the Train Operators Resourcing Agreement (TORA). As for a 4 day week for Train Operators it's still not the norm on all lines. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 18, 2019 11:24:47 GMT
I know about the "company information" page on aslef.org.uk, I just couldn't be bothered to read through it all on a Sunday morning...
I'd not noticed they'd changed PTOA to TORA but then I still call CDP ATOR and I still call the manager on the desk a DMT even though they are now TMs which used to be DTSMs. You say tomato, I say tomato.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Aug 18, 2019 12:31:18 GMT
I know about the "company information" page on aslef.org.uk, I just couldn't be bothered to read through it all on a Sunday morning... I'd not noticed they'd changed PTOA to TORA but then I still call CDP ATOR and I still call the manager on the desk a DMT even though they are now TMs which used to be DTSMs. You say tomato, I say tomato. Yes I wonder how much has been spent on changes to grade/job titles over the last 50 years on the London Underground. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Aug 18, 2019 12:49:54 GMT
I know about the "company information" page on aslef.org.uk, I just couldn't be bothered to read through it all on a Sunday morning... I'd not noticed they'd changed PTOA to TORA but then I still call CDP ATOR and I still call the manager on the desk a DMT even though they are now TMs which used to be DTSMs. You say tomato, I say tomato. CDP = Continuous Development Programme ATOR = Annual Test of Rules (and Procedures) DMT = Duty Manager Trains TM = Trains Manager DTSM = Duty Train Staff Manager Just a reminder to explain your acronyms please folks. |
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Aug 18, 2019 18:27:56 GMT
I know about the "company information" page on aslef.org.uk, I just couldn't be bothered to read through it all on a Sunday morning... I'd not noticed they'd changed PTOA to TORA but then I still call CDP ATOR and I still call the manager on the desk a DMT even though they are now TMs which used to be DTSMs. You say tomato, I say tomato. Yes I wonder how much has been spent on changes to grade/job titles over the last 50 years on the London Underground. Best not to ask that question! I came to LU on Work Experience not long after Duty Crew Managers and Duty Train Managers were amalgamated as Duty Manager (Trains). Then DM(T) was split into Duty Reliability Managers (Effectively the old DTM grade), Duty Train Staff Managers (the old DCM) and Train Operations Standards Managers, before TOSMs and DTSMs became Trains Managers, and now they're talking about bringing DRMs back in the fold effectively recreating the DM(T) role! It's fairly true that the only constant is change... I've also worked out that the average change cycle is about 17 or 18 years to go full circle. |
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Post by drainrat on Aug 18, 2019 20:11:57 GMT
Not correct, it's the Professional Train Operator Agreement (PTOA) that is agreed by the trade unions (via branch/district processes) and management. It's not the trade unions that don't allow it, and let's not forget, the TUs aren't a separate entity to the drivers who belong to them, they are the Union and the union represents them. As for overtime, goldenarrow is correct. Obviously we've both observed the same thing where there's becoming a reliance on overtime, and often it's refused by the driver so the train goes to the depot/siding, leaving the service 'thinner'. There used to be a time where you'd be told to stable it on the trip before handing over, now they often keep quiet until a couple stations before, in hope you'll accept the overtime, thus, what may've been an Epping service, then becomes a Woodford service at Leytonstone, and passengers quite rightly getting more and more annoyed. Trouble is, as I've pointed out many times in these threads, stereotyping is an important point to understand in this, and the drivers have been stereotyped as public enemy #1 for many years, and so must be to blame, but the reality of it rarely comes to light, because the real villains are seldom shown in a bad light 🙄 How rigid is the 4 hours and 15 minutes maximum driving time? Are drivers being asked to exceed this? , There seemed to be a policy where the Train Managers were being told to put spare drivers on meal relief almost immediately in order to overcome claims of going over the 4hr 15 mins, but the unions just received confirmation from the director of line operations that this will cease. In my experience, they rarely try it on with 'stubborn' drivers, but will use the newer and compliant drivers to break it. My view is those drivers are making a rod for their own back 🙄 |
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Post by nig on Aug 18, 2019 20:14:33 GMT
I know about the "company information" page on aslef.org.uk, I just couldn't be bothered to read through it all on a Sunday morning... I'd not noticed they'd changed PTOA to TORA but then I still call CDP ATOR and I still call the manager on the desk a DMT even though they are now TMs which used to be DTSMs. You say tomato, I say tomato. As far as in aware the PTOA (Professionally Train Operators Agreement ) still stands the TORA (Train Operator Resourcing Agreement ) is more to do with things like staffing, opening new depots, transfers, and filling of rosters |
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Post by nig on Aug 22, 2019 14:40:18 GMT
not sure why but strike dates have been changed to 20:00 hours on Tuesday 3rd September until 20:00 hours on Wednesday 4th September 2019 on central and victoria lines
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Post by mb2014 on Aug 23, 2019 7:51:13 GMT
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