Diesel/Freight Locos on the Underground

[underover]

Hey all,
I was talking to someone about what sort of locos used to run on the underground, and I remember someone saying a Class 14 may have run may years ago. Obviously, there were 66s and 20s fairly recently along with the class 33 on the special to aylesbury.

Were any other 'odd locos' ever used on the LU network or shunting locos ever used for anything? (08 at a coal power station maybe?)

[spsmiler]

Sorry, I do not know dates, times etc. But this may still help.

At least on some journeys the experimental British Railways Gas Turbine locomotive was used on services out of Marylebone which were routed via Amersham, also I feel sure that a HST has travelled to Marylebone via Amersham.

At least one experimental self-propelled diesel train was evaluated on the Chesham branch in the days before it was electrified.

In the 1990s there was a railtour using Class 205 diesel units on the Metropolitan line, including what by then was the Jubilee line to Stanmore.

I think it was Class 25s which took over from steam locos on goods services on former mainline routes on the Northern and Central lines. I believe that these also hauled some of the summer excursion trains from Loughton to various destinations, including south coast seaside towns. I do not know if summer excursions also ran from High Barnet or Edgware via Mill Hill East after WW2. Alexandra Palace would have been out of scope here, as whilst electric rails were installed they were never energised and the route never saw electric trains.

I do not know whether steam or diesel locos hauled the Railway Correspondence & Travel Society (RCTS) special to Edgware via Mill Hill East before the section between Edgware & Mill Hill East was closed.

Then there were the BR diesel multiple units which ran to Epping on what were nominally staff trains until early 1970. Possibly these are what later became known as Class 105. Their destination blinds are reputed to have included places such as Epping and Ongar, as if the passenger services to these places had not been transferred to electric tube trains in the late 1940s.

[cso]

I remember a Diesel Loco shunting ballast up and down the Met line around Ickenham sometime in the last 10 years.

[castlebar]

There were coal trains into South Harrow gas works which had to reverse at Rayners,

and the steam workings through Turnham Green and Hammersmith to Lillie Bridge are well documented somewhere on these boards

[norbitonflyer]

Class 25s would be unlikely on the Northern or Central as they were never common on the Eastern Region, and the depots most likely to have duties on those branches would have been Finsbury Park and Stratford.

I have seen a photo of a class 15 shunting at a station on the Northern Line. Also an early Metro Cammell unit (outwardly similar to a class 101) at Loughton.

[johnb2]

I recall seeing GT3 crossing the bridge by Pinner station on a down service. I thought it looked fantastic!

[35b]

Aug 2, 2020 23:14:56 GMT cso said:

I remember a Diesel Loco shunting ballast up and down the Met line around Ickenham sometime in the last 10 years.

If memory serves me right, Metronet used GBRF class 66 diesels for Metropolitan track works.

[cso]

It could well have been a 66 to be fair, I really can't remember - it just surprised me greatly at the time

[revupminster]

replacing the crossover at Upminster by Robert, on Flickr

Class 66s at Upminster on LU tracks and network rail Upminster- Romford line in April 2009 replacing the LU trackwork.

Also freight ran on the East London Line until the tracks were disconnected at Shoreditch and New Cross/Gate mid 1960s

[spsmiler]

20 142 at Hillingdon, December 2013 on a 'Steam On The Met' event (still image from video)

[tubetraveller]

There have been Class 66 locos used on engineering works as late as 2017 too

[MoreToJack]

Class 66 locomotives run annually over the Met on the Network Rail Rail Head Treatment Train; indeed these will start appearing shortly on driver familiarisation runs.

[selbiehouse]

The East London Line saw occasional diesel hauled excursion trains.   The Middleton Press book, London Suburban Railways - the East London Line records that on 21st June 1959 Class 16 D8401 worked an Elsenham - Brighton excursion forward from Liverpool Street to Brighton.   On 17th May 1964 Class 31 D5597 was noted on a Chingford - Brighton excursion.

[underover]

Aug 13, 2020 15:33:37 GMT MoreToJack said:

Class 66 locomotives run annually over the Met on the Network Rail Rail Head Treatment Train; indeed these will start appearing shortly on driver familiarisation runs.

It is quite funny watching them run though a station that the LU Sandite train has just run though 10 minutes previous xD

[spsmiler]

Aug 13, 2020 23:27:42 GMT underover said:

Aug 13, 2020 15:33:37 GMT MoreToJack said:

Class 66 locomotives run annually over the Met on the Network Rail Rail Head Treatment Train; indeed these will start appearing shortly on driver familiarisation runs.

It is quite funny watching them run though a station that the LU Sandite train has just run though 10 minutes previous xD

I know what you mean, a totally absurd situation!

So, yes it would be far better if these trains were timed to run on a schedule that maximises the benefit - not minimises (or even completely negates) the benefit.

[d7666]

15s (D8200s) used to work freight to Loughton, Epping, Ongar; also to Edgware.

15s, 16s (D8400s), BT2s (D5500s) were common on East London line on excursions to south coast - this was posted upthread, but the wording there was 'occasional', in fact they were quite regular. Some of those excursions originated at Loughton; others at main line locations such as Chingford; reverse in main line Liverpool Street thence via Shoreditch.

25s - common on the Met, as were 27s when allocated to ML sheds; 24s when allocated to GN and GE sheds - 24s were very common in the widened lines and Snow Hill on ER-SR freight, they took over from steam; wonder if there is confusion here between 24s and 25s ?

Not sure if any 26s did these workings, they too were at GN sheds.

Ref 14s, never heard of that, just wondering is there perhaps some confusion between a main line 0-6-0DH 14 and the 0-6-0DH Sentinels LT used to have ?

[nickf]

I can remember as a child in the early 1960s (perhaps earlier) a steam hauled goods train passing East through Tower Hill station.

[d7666]

Thread has reminded me to ask a question.

10800.

This is known to have been evaluated by LT as one of the diesel traction options for north of Rickmansworth.

But did it actually come on to LT metals anywhere for this ? Evaluation doesn't imply it had to. I've never seen any records or photos of this.

LT's evaluation appears to have taken place during the time 10800 was allocated to Plaistow. It was allocated there - on loan only - from 25/12/1954 to 26/02/1955; before then it was allocated to Norwood Junction, and after then to Rugby.

10800 allocation to Plaistow was not specifically for LT evaluation, it was was there for LTSR line trials for possible parcels etc work, and for things like Tilbury boat trains, all part of the LTSR electrification plans and how to deal with non-electric workings.

Returning to LT topicity for 10800, the only other two snippets of gen I have managed to collect is that one contemporary journal reported it as being 5 in too high for Met. line tunnels south of Finchley Road (but again it did not have to get on to LT metals to identify that), and that LT were also after an electro-diesel version. Both these two items suggest LT was actually interested in something more than just north of Rickmasworth.

I have personally (albeit it a long time ago) trawled through the NBL diesels archives in the Mitchell Library in Glasgow and there was no record of any NBL electro-diesel version, at least not in the form of drawings or other technical documentation includings tenders and offers etc.

Having now asked this question about 10800 on LT, I'm sure someone will now point me to a book that I've missed !

[d7666]

Aug 15, 2020 10:05:57 GMT spsmiler said:

Aug 13, 2020 23:27:42 GMT underover said:

It is quite funny watching them run though a station that the LU Sandite train has just run though 10 minutes previous xD

I know what you mean, a totally absurd situation!

So, yes it would be far better if these trains were timed to run on a schedule that maximises the benefit - not minimises (or even completely negates) the benefit.

The LU train and the main line RHTT train do not lay the same substance, and the latter may not be laying anything, except water jetting.

The way to tell (assuming it is still valid; it was valid in 2018) is the main line train reporting number*** - if the letter is a 'J' it is water jetting, if it is an 'S' it is laying a substance called Trackgrip60. The'S' is a legacy from when these did lay Sandite, but the latter not used any more; the name Sandite has remained in common use.

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing that one may or may not cancel the other, just commenting they are two different things. And, if anyone has seen them following each other, were both actually working ?


*** although I do not know if these letters are universal nor what they actually carry while working over Chiltern + Met.line.

[bassmike]

I remember seeing B R 060 diesel shunters on the meat trains to Smithfield

[johnb2]

Sept 7, 2020 19:24:19 GMT bassmike said:

I remember seeing B R 060 diesel shunters on the meat trains to Smithfield

I recall one trundling through Baker Street Circle Line (inner rail) with some vans and a brakevan, presumably heading for Paddington. Must have been early 50s as I was only little squirt then!!!

[MoreToJack]

Sept 7, 2020 16:54:36 GMT d7666 said:

Aug 15, 2020 10:05:57 GMT spsmiler said:

I know what you mean, a totally absurd situation!

So, yes it would be far better if these trains were timed to run on a schedule that maximises the benefit - not minimises (or even completely negates) the benefit.

The LU train and the main line RHTT train do not lay the same substance, and the latter may not be laying anything, except water jetting.

The way to tell (assuming it is still valid; it was valid in 2018) is the main line train reporting number*** - if the letter is a 'J' it is water jetting, if it is an 'S' it is laying a substance called Trackgrip60. The'S' is a legacy from when these did lay Sandite, but the latter not used any more; the name Sandite has remained in common use.

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing that one may or may not cancel the other, just commenting they are two different things. And, if anyone has seen them following each other, were both actually working ?


*** although I do not know if these letters are universal nor what they actually carry while working over Chiltern + Met.line.

The 66-hauled RHTT water jets only. It has not been timetabled behind the RAT for many years; it runs in front of. In the event of disruption or significant adhesion problems the RAT can generally operate additional trips ad hoc.

RAT: Rail Adhesion Train
RHTT: Railhead Treatment Train

[d7666]

Sept 7, 2020 21:07:22 GMT MoreToJack said:

Sept 7, 2020 16:54:36 GMT d7666 said:

The LU train and the main line RHTT train do not lay the same substance, and the latter may not be laying anything, except water jetting.

The way to tell (assuming it is still valid; it was valid in 2018) is the main line train reporting number*** - if the letter is a 'J' it is water jetting, if it is an 'S' it is laying a substance called Trackgrip60. The'S' is a legacy from when these did lay Sandite, but the latter not used any more; the name Sandite has remained in common use.

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing that one may or may not cancel the other, just commenting they are two different things. And, if anyone has seen them following each other, were both actually working ?


*** although I do not know if these letters are universal nor what they actually carry while working over Chiltern + Met.line.

The 66-hauled RHTT water jets only. It has not been timetabled behind the RAT for many years; it runs in front of. In the event of disruption or significant adhesion problems the RAT can generally operate additional trips ad hoc.

RAT: Rail Adhesion Train
RHTT: Railhead Treatment Train

In which case, the RHTT water jetting in front of RAT I'd suggest is beneficial, the RHTT simply cleaning the railheads of mulch, then the RAT laying Sandite on top a clean rail.

I ought to know this: the RHTT only does the main [fast] lines doesn't it, and not the slow Mets, nor any branch ?

[MoreToJack]

Correct. The RHTT only covers the Mains, the RAT covers all branches but not the north/southbound local nor the north/southbound Main (but can be diverted in emergencies).

[roythebus]

I doubt johnb2 would have seen a diesel going through Baker street in the early 1950s as I don't think the Western Region had any at that time. The 0-6-0 English electric (class 08) shunters were around at that time, but not in any significant numbers. It's possible they were used on the meat trains to Smithfield in the 1960s after the end of WR steam.

There was an 08 based in the spur on the Widened Lines at Farringdon until the Snow Hill line closed to bank train either up Snow Hill or to Kings Cross. I seem to recall this being discussed on here a few years ago at length if you care to scroll back.

[johnb2]

It could have been no later than 1956 as I was with my father who passed away early in the next year. I remember him pulling me back further back towards the wall as this lot clattered through leaving a strong smell of diesel. So what it was I don't know.
Didn't the WR have a couple similiar 0-6-0s of their own?

[philthetube]

I now they have been briefly mentioned but class 20's have done quite a lot of work moving the S stock around.

I am surprised that no pics of the underground liveried 20 have appeared on this thread.

[t697]

Sept 8, 2020 13:02:45 GMT MoreToJack said:

Correct. The RHTT only covers the Mains, the RAT covers all branches but not the north/southbound local nor the north/southbound Main (but can be diverted in emergencies).

Normally the RAT covers the local north of Harrow through North Harrow, Pinner and so on. Presume you meant south of Harrow?

[d7666]

Sept 8, 2020 17:56:00 GMT roythebus said:

I doubt johnb2 would have seen a diesel going through Baker street in the early 1950s as I don't think the Western Region had any at that time. The 0-6-0 English electric (class 08) shunters were around at that time, but not in any significant numbers. It's possible they were used on the meat trains to Smithfield in the 1960s after the end of WR steam.

Au contraire, WR and directly relavent here, Old Oak Common was an early 08 depot D3030 (as 13030) was there from 10/1953 :
www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=3030&type=D&loco=3030
and D3031-3033 too, so it is entirely possible one could have been seen between then and the year 1956 referred to.


There is a LURS article available as a PDF on the web : this has 1960 as change from 57XX/97XX pannier tank to 08 shunter, but that doesn't necessarily exclude 08s working earlier.

Not sure if it's supposed to be a public link so I won't post the URL here, it's got pics of 15 25 27 on LU metals as well as numerous kettles.

[Dstock7080]

Sept 8, 2020 23:48:02 GMT d7666 said:

Not sure if it's supposed to be a public link so I won't post the URL here, it's got pics of 15 25 27 on LU metals as well as numerous kettles.

There is no Members only area on the LURS website, so anything is available for all.