Train Stabling, Depot & stabling siding capacity

[will]

Hi guys, I was wondering where all the trains are stabled when out of service at night.



I also wondered what the capacity of each depot and fan of sidings was.

From the working timetables for each line I can tell where the trains start and finish but this doesn’t cover the entire fleet.

From what I’ve stated below is from my own research & guess work. There are almost certainly a few mistakes. I’m sure many of you know better and I’d be very grateful if you could put me right.



Thanks in advance! Will


Bakerloo

London Road Depot (Capacity 11 trains) Stabled 11 trains

Queens Park North and South sheds (Capacity?) Stabled 7 trains

Stonebridge Park Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 12 trains

Elephant and Castle (Capacity?) 1 train in either platform 3 or 4

Are Elephant and Castle 23 & 24 roads used to stable trains too?


That’s 31 out of 36 trains. Where are the remaining 5 located?


Central

Ruislip Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 17 trains

White City Sidings (Capacity 16 trains) Stabled 12 trains

Woodford Platform 1 – Stabled 1 train

Woodford Sidings (Capacity 5 trains) Stabled 5 trains

Hainault Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 32 trains

Loughton Sidings (Capacity 10 trains) Stabled 10 trains


That’s 77 out of 85. Where are the other remaining 8 located? 4 presumably within White City Depot.


Jubilee

Stanmore Sidings (Capacity 10 trains) Stabled 10 trains

Neasden Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 20 96ts

Stratford Market Depot (Capacity 33 trains) Stabled 28 trains


That’s 58 out of 63. The other 5 trains presumably located within Stratford Market Depot



Northern

Edgeware Sidings (Capacity 13 trains) Stabled 13 trains

High Barnet Sidings (Capacity 12?) Stabled 8 trains

Highgate Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 16 trains

Golders Green Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 17 trains

Morden Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 42 trains


That’s 96 trains out of 106. Where are the other 10 located?



Piccadilly

Uxbridge Platform Stabled 1 train

South Harrow Sidings (Capacity 7?) Stabled 4 trains

Northfields Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 34 trains

Arnos Grove Sidings (Capacity 7 trains) Stabled 6 trains

Cockfosters Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 34 trains



That’s 79 of 86 trains. Where are the others located?





Victoria

Northumberland Park Depot (Capacity?) Stabled 36 trains

Victoria Siding (Capacity 2 trains) Stabled 1 train

Brixton (Capacity 2 sidings, 2 platforms) Stabled 3 trains (2 in sidings, 1 in platform)

Walthamstow (Capacity 2 sidings 2 platforms) Stabled 2 trains in platforms.


That’s 41 of 47 trains. The other 6 presumably stabled in Northumberland Park Depot.



Waterloo and City

Waterloo Depot (Capacity 5 trains?) Stabled 4 trains

1 train stabled at either Bank or Waterloo

5 of 5 trains accounted for.

[Westinghouse]

Hi Will

Can't speak for the other lines and not sure the quantities stabled at each location but capacities of the top of my head

Bakerloo

London Road Depot capacity 11.5 (4 cars of 1967 stock currently on 6 road)

Queens Park North and South sheds capacity 8

Stonebridge Park Depot 19.5 (37 & 38 roads for major overheals not used for regular stabling, 45 road can only fit 4 cars)

Elephant and Castle capacity 1 train in either platform

Elephant and Castle 23 & 24 roads no longer used for regular stabling

[DWS]

The working timetables do not give information about how many trains can be stabled at each depot, sidings, etc . Some of the fleet will be under maintenance and not shown in timetables.

[will]

Jan 12, 2021 16:23:23 GMT DWS said:

The working timetables do not give information about how many trains can be stabled at each depot, sidings, etc . Some of the fleet will be under maintenance and not shown in timetables.

I'm just curious as to where trains are and can be stabled, particularly in relation to planned upgrades such as the new Piccadilly fleet.


The operation of depots and where trains can stable is something that isn't really discussed on this forum. Especially compared to other topics. People here are so knowledgeable!  

[Tom]

Jan 12, 2021 17:13:15 GMT will said:

The operation of depots and where trains can stable is something that isn't really discussed on this forum. Especially compared to other topics. People here are so knowledgeable!  

Mod comment
There is a reason details about train stabling, and numbers of trains stabled at any particular location are not discussed - it would be of use to certain members of the public who are interested in such information for nefarious activities such as the unauthorised painting of trains into non-corporate liveries. Please consider the requirements of Rule 7, and that posts on the forum are generally visible to non-members.

As you have observed, the TfL website provides Working Timetables with some of the information you seek.

[zbang]

(This is more towards risk assessment than anything else)

There is a difference between the number of trains that can be stabled somewhere and the number that actually are- the track maps and aerial photos are readily available* and it's reasonable to assume that at least a few trains are stabled at each depot. I expect the bigger question (which might be the one to avoid) is where trains are stabled outdoors that isn't a depot.

*google maps around Acton Town are dated 2021 

In a depot shed- low risk (supervised area)

On a depot outdoor track- low risk (supervised area)

On a tunnel siding or station- low-moderate risk (very limited access, little supervision overnight but station CCTV and station activity)
In an outdoor station- moderate risk (limited access, little supervision overnight but station CCTV and station activity)

On an outdoor siding not in a station (Rickmansworth? Wembley Park?)- (moderate-high risk, somewhat limited access but little to no supervision and little to no after-hours activity)

If you really want to know, you might be able to deduce the info from the WTTs, but it sounds like you're on your own for that.

[nig]

Don't know where you got the figure of 86 trains on the pic line I'm sure there is only 79 trains . 78 in service at moment while they put the rat train back together

[Dstock7080]

Jan 13, 2021 14:50:21 GMT nig said:

Don't know where you got the figure of 86 trains on the pic line I'm sure there is only 79 trains . 78 in service at moment while they put the rat train back together

87½ trains of 1973 Stock were built for the Piccadilly.
83½ still remain after losses and reforms.

[will]

Jan 13, 2021 15:53:24 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Jan 13, 2021 14:50:21 GMT nig said:

Don't know where you got the figure of 86 trains on the pic line I'm sure there is only 79 trains . 78 in service at moment while they put the rat train back together

87½ trains of 1973 Stock were built for the Piccadilly.
83½ still remain after losses and reforms.

No wonder this puts pressure on the depots during leaf fall season with only 5½ trains!

I got the figure from an official London Underground Rolling Stock Unit formations file. it stated the Piccadilly had 86 trains comprising 172 three car units. Dated 31st March 2014, a little out of date i know. It was from What Do They Know as a result of someone's FOI request. If anyone wants a copy i can always send it over as it contains every unit number for every train at that time. 

Thanks for the info guys

[nig]

Jan 13, 2021 15:53:24 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Jan 13, 2021 14:50:21 GMT nig said:

Don't know where you got the figure of 86 trains on the pic line I'm sure there is only 79 trains . 78 in service at moment while they put the rat train back together

87½ trains of 1973 Stock were built for the Piccadilly.
83½ still remain after losses and reforms.

how come they can only offer 78 for service (79 when rat back )  ? is it due to overhaul and unserviceable trains ?

[will]

Jan 13, 2021 16:45:24 GMT nig said:

Jan 13, 2021 15:53:24 GMT Dstock7080 said:

87½ trains of 1973 Stock were built for the Piccadilly.
83½ still remain after losses and reforms.

how come they can only offer 78 for service (79 when rat back )  ? is it due to overhaul and unserviceable trains ?

Each line (with the exception of the Waterloo and City that uses 5/5 trains in the peaks) holds some of its trains back in the peak periods. This is so trains can be overhauled, be examined, and be refurbished.

It would be too much on the depots to have every train leave twice a day.

Also its better to have X% spare even if you can physically run them. The Jubilee could maybe hit 32tph with all 63 trains in service. it only actually runs 59 for 30tph so that if say 3 out of 63 were faulty or needed heavy maintenance the full normal service can still be provided with 59 good trains. Rather than to cancel trains at the last minute due to the depot not being able to release them. 

[metman]

Absolutely, a spare float of trains is required as stated.

It is also common for a depot to have a ‘Christmas tree’; a train set aside as a source of parts to keep the others operating especially when spares become hard to obtain.

[jimbo]

Jan 12, 2021 17:13:15 GMT will said:

Jan 12, 2021 16:23:23 GMT DWS said:

The working timetables do not give information about how many trains can be stabled at each depot, sidings, etc . Some of the fleet will be under maintenance and not shown in timetables.

I'm just curious as to where trains are and can be stabled, particularly in relation to planned upgrades such as the new Piccadilly fleet.


The operation of depots and where trains can stable is something that isn't really discussed on this forum. Especially compared to other topics. People here are so knowledgeable!  

The January 2020 Underground News had an article based on a FoI document of March 2016. 94 trains are on order to replace the current 87 trains. Current Piccadilly stabling includes 10 spare roads, so plenty for the initial fleet increase, and delivery of first new trains can be accommodated until disposal of old fleet commences. The current South Harrow 6 sidings are to be extended to stable 12 trains, relieving Northfields depot for rebuilding work, which can then accommodate some trains from Cockfosters depot whilst that is rebuilt. Most of the spare capacity seems to be at Cockfosters, but Northfields will be a little tight if sufficient trains for 36tph are ever ordered, which seems increasingly unlikely!

[AndrewS]

Jan 13, 2021 20:24:11 GMT metman said:

Absolutely, a spare float of trains is required as stated.

It is also common for a depot to have a ‘Christmas tree’; a train set aside as a source of parts to keep the others operating especially when spares become hard to obtain.

That doesn't sound a very efficient way of holding spares.  It would mean paying for a very expensive cabinet to keep the spares (the body of the train), you'd have to unscrew the part to reuse it rather than just pick it off a shelf, and some parts will need replacing more often than others so you won't have the right quantity in stock.  I suspect the Christmas tree method is only used when a fleet is approaching end of life (see Isle of Wight).

[t697]

Jan 14, 2021 10:17:13 GMT AndrewS said:

Jan 13, 2021 20:24:11 GMT metman said:

Absolutely, a spare float of trains is required as stated.

It is also common for a depot to have a ‘Christmas tree’; a train set aside as a source of parts to keep the others operating especially when spares become hard to obtain.

That doesn't sound a very efficient way of holding spares.  It would mean paying for a very expensive cabinet to keep the spares (the body of the train), you'd have to unscrew the part to reuse it rather than just pick it off a shelf, and some parts will need replacing more often than others so you won't have the right quantity in stock.  I suspect the Christmas tree method is only used when a fleet is approaching end of life (see Isle of Wight).

I agree, a poor way to proceed. However the Picc does have (guilty?) history here. Unit 114 became the 'tree' and never entered passenger service...   Later the trailer car became the Track Recording Car, DM car 114 actually did later make it into service replacing the DM damaged in the Wood Green arcing incident and the UNDM was used to try out interior refurb ideas before it was scrapped.

[norbitonflyer]

Jan 14, 2021 10:17:13 GMT AndrewS said:

Jan 13, 2021 20:24:11 GMT metman said:

It is also common for a depot to have a ‘Christmas tree’; a train set aside as a source of parts to keep the others operating especially when spares become hard to obtain.

That doesn't sound a very efficient way of holding spares. 

It seems to be quite common when a unit or vehicle is out of commission for a long time because of a major problem, that spare parts are "borrowed" from it to keep other members of the fleet going. This may on occasion be easier than ordering a spare part, especially if it needs to be ordered from an off-site location (whether an in-house (but remote) store or from an external supplier. I think it usually just happens, rather than an official designation of a donor vehicle. "Oh we need a replacement headlight Fred" "get one off No 6, it's not going anywhere until they've repaired it after the accident". And so gradually No 6 is whittled away, until it's either written off or repaired (when all the missing components will be replaced).

[Tom]

Jan 14, 2021 17:12:00 GMT norbitonflyer said:

It seems to be quite common when a unit or vehicle is out of commission for a long time because of a major problem, that spare parts are "borrowed" from it to keep other members of the fleet going. This may on occasion be easier than ordering a spare part, especially if it needs to be ordered from an off-site location (whether an in-house (but remote) store or from an external supplier. I think it usually just happens, rather than an official designation of a donor vehicle. "Oh we need a replacement headlight Fred" "get one off No 6, it's not going anywhere until they've repaired it after the accident". And so gradually No 6 is whittled away, until it's either written off or repaired (when all the missing components will be replaced).

There were, of course, trains you weren't supposed to use as organ donors, frequently labelled "DO NOT ROB".

[zbang]

Jan 14, 2021 10:17:13 GMT AndrewS said:

That doesn't sound a very efficient way of holding spares.  It would mean paying for a very expensive cabinet to keep the spares (the body of the train), ...

Possibly more efficient than stripping a train, storing the parts somewhere else, then disposing of the remains. And if you need body parts for crash repair, where better to get them than from another crashed car?  Heck, if there's already a car waiting for parts, another could become a donor to the first.

Unless all the relevant depots are cramped for space, there isn't much reason to scrap the car just to clear track space.

[zbang]

Jan 14, 2021 17:33:06 GMT Tom said:

There were, of course, trains you weren't supposed to use as organ donors, frequently labelled "DO NOT ROB".

At one time, I had a sign from some gear which read-

Property of US Government

Do not Remove, Cannibalize, or Deface

^{Without proper authority}

(I did have authority to take the sign .)

[metman]

With the age of some of the fleets in recent years robbing from the existing fleet was the only way to get parts! The A stock operated for over 50 years! Westinghouse weren’t going to supply a DHC5a compressor in 2005!

[Chris M]

Modern rolling stock orders tend to include a provision in the contract for the supply of parts for at least the expected life of the stock for this reason.

[miff]

Even then there is still some risk of this not being fulfilled if the supplier goes bust.

[zbang]

Jan 15, 2021 19:40:54 GMT Chris M said:

Modern rolling stock orders tend to include a provision in the contract for the supply of parts for at least the expected life of the stock for this reason.

A supply certainly, but I expect that's limited to certain parts, systems, and quantities. The builder might make 20 extra compressors and put them on the shelf, but probably isn't going to make more than a couple of bogies and store them. Or they might keep a few sets of castings out in the yard, but still need to build up complete replacement units ("that'll be 24 weeks, squire").

It would be interesting to see what a recent contract says, but I'm not going looking for one at the moment.

(I know that many countries require motor vehicle makers to keep safety-related parts available for 10-15 years, but not cosmetic or optional parts, so a radio for the 8 year old car? Not a chance.... 'course there's a large aftermarket industry for auto and lorry parts.)

[metman]

Certainly older rolling stock can suffer with obsolescence but with advances in technology changing all the time, newer stock can also suffer with out of date equipment.

It’s fortunate that the withdrawal of the 1967 stock has provided so many spare parts for the Bakerloo’s 1972 fleet. In fact the old Mark 1 stock compressors were recently replaced with spare Westinghouse compressors from D stock to match the rest of the fleet.

[fish7373]

Jan 17, 2021 21:48:09 GMT metman said:

Certainly older rolling stock can suffer with obsolescence but with advances in technology changing all the time, newer stock can also suffer with out of date equipment.

It’s fortunate that the withdrawal of the 1967 stock has provided so many spare parts for the Bakerloo’s 1972 fleet. In fact the old Mark 1 stock compressors were recently replaced with spare Westinghouse compressors from D stock to match the rest of the fleet.

The MK 1s  had the same compressors as the D stock same as the 73s compressors and we had some off D stock as well for the Piccadilly line

 

[metman]

Mark 1s had Reavell TBC38Z as did the C77 stock, 1967 stock and A62 stock and the Mk2s, D stock and 1973 stock had the Westinghouse 3HC43 compressors.

[fish7373]

Jan 18, 2021 20:58:55 GMT metman said:

Mark 1s had Reavell TBC38Z as did the C77 stock, 1967 stock and A62 stock and the Mk2s, D stock and 1973 stock had the Westinghouse 3HC43 compressors.

Hi when i got the 72 MK 1 for the AIT  it had  fitted Westinghouse 3HC43 compressors.

[fish7373]

Jan 18, 2021 20:58:55 GMT metman said:

Mark 1s had Reavell TBC38Z as did the C77 stock, 1967 stock and A62 stock and the Mk2s, D stock and 1973 stock had the Westinghouse 3HC43 compressors.

A60/62 Where fitted with DHC5a Westinghouse

[metman]

Jan 18, 2021 22:13:17 GMT fish7373 said:

Jan 18, 2021 20:58:55 GMT metman said:

Mark 1s had Reavell TBC38Z as did the C77 stock, 1967 stock and A62 stock and the Mk2s, D stock and 1973 stock had the Westinghouse 3HC43 compressors.

Hi when i got the 72 MK 1 for the AIT  it had  fitted Westinghouse 3HC43 compressors.

I guess they were replaced during the upgrade work?

[fish7373]

Jan 19, 2021 19:56:35 GMT metman said:

Jan 18, 2021 22:13:17 GMT fish7373 said:

Hi when i got the 72 MK 1 for the AIT  it had  fitted Westinghouse 3HC43 compressors.

I guess they were replaced during the upgrade work?

Hi what was the upgrade when came to Northfields from Shoeburyness Westinghouse 3HC43 compressors. all ready fitted just needed overhauling