A Stock - Delivery Route from Cravens

[carltona]

Does anybody know the route(s) used to deliver new A Stock from the Cravens Works at Sheffield to LT?

[towerman]

The GC was still in existence then,could probably go direct to Ruislip from Sheffield.

[brigham]

Rail transport for rail vehicles was still available then, so they probably went by rail...

[burkitt]

Rail transport for rail vehicles is still available today. The S stock was delivered by rail from Derby and the 24 stock is expected to be delivered by rail from both Vienna and Goole.

*and sent back to the factory for CBTC installation and returned to LU by rail!

[carltona]

May 12, 2023 16:44:32 GMT towerman said:

The GC was still in existence then,could probably go direct to Ruislip from Sheffield.

I've seen that suggested before but never seen any source quoted or photos that confirm they came down the GC main line. They went to Adtranz at Derby at some point for a refit. I Would be interested if anyone knew the delivery method used on that occasion.

[d7666]

May 14, 2023 15:10:27 GMT carltona said:

May 12, 2023 16:44:32 GMT towerman said:

The GC was still in existence then,could probably go direct to Ruislip from Sheffield.

I've seen that suggested before but never seen any source quoted or photos that confirm they came down the GC main line. They went to Adtranz at Derby at some point for a refit. I Would be interested if anyone knew the delivery method used on that occasion.

For unrelated reasons I had come across the identical subject on another forum from 2014 :

www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/87993-a6062-deliveries-from-cravens-to-london-transport/

(that interestingly one post suggests 'ask District Dave' !!!)

That forum does appear to give the answer for the delivery route if you add different posts together .

However, I suggest they are adrift when speculating on motive power; when they start talking about 30s / 31s / Brush2s / whatever you want to call the things, Tinsley depot, and air brakes, they are way off then as :

(1) there was no such thing as an air brake Brush2 at this time, this was vacuum braking days, so unbraked train
(2) Tinsley depot was not open then, it did not open until 1964
(3) the main Sheffield are diesel depot was Darnall at the time in question, which is an odd oversight exactly because Cravens were in Darnall
(4) one of the later posts quotes a BR 5MT 75ooo kettle, and refers to a picture, but no link to it

So take the gen posted with some salt. It does agree with GC, but, could be an assumption. If they are so adrift on traction they could be on route too.

Somewhere, long ago, I am sure I have seen a train of A60 stock taken at Rotherwood, but no idea where that is to be found, and I don't think it had a loco on it. Rotherwood is very close to Darnall were the Cravens plant was.


Googling this issue with A60 and GCR as keywords is interesting - as one of the bridgeworks with todays GCR and their reunification works is over the A60 road.

[d7666]

www.flickr.com/photos/rtw501/48662035091/

Darnall not Rotherwood, but this is not the picture I was thinking of, I'd not seen this one before. Again no locos.


EDIT
It has since occurred to me the image I am thinking of might be in one of the commercial collections e.g. like Colourail or similar ?

[Dstock7080]

May 14, 2023 15:10:27 GMT carltona said:

They went to Adtranz at Derby at some point for a refit. I Would be interested if anyone knew the delivery method used on that occasion.

In 1995 usually with Class 37 loco;
Neasden-Amersham-Aylesbury (loco run-around)-High Wycombe-Old Oak Common sidings (evening layover)-Reading-Oxford-Leamington-Burton on Trent-Derby.

[theblackferret]

If this was,as per Wiki, delivered to LT in 1961/2 & used on the Met & east London Line, I'd favour the old GC route because:

1) by 1960, that route was beginning to be run down by BR Midland region,both for freight & passengers, so it was more likely to have regular paths available for delivery.

2) Track was still down on joint GC/Met lines allowing transfer across.

3) At that time(pre-Beeching) where BR was charged with saving money wherever & whenever it could,it would make sense to use the ex-GC route.

Can't prove it,of course. Wonder if any railway mags of the time could help?

[d7666]

May 14, 2023 17:48:30 GMT theblackferret said:

1) by 1960, that route was beginning to be run down by BR Midland region,both for freight & passengers, so it was more likely to have regular paths available for delivery.

2) Track was still down on joint GC/Met lines allowing transfer across.

3) At that time(pre-Beeching) where BR was charged with saving money wherever & whenever it could,it would make sense to use the ex-GC route.

C

1) and 3) if it was being run down they would actually divert as much traffic as possible away from it (that they did) to justify closure (which they did), not put traffic on it.

If GC were used, it would not be for any of those reasons, but being the simplest, run down or not, cost or not, especially if it had to move as an unbraked load.

[roythebus]

The unbraked loads in 1960-78 would not have been at all unusual. The majority of non-passenger traffic was unbraked and ran at about 35mph. The majority of traffic on the GC was unbraked freight. I can ask the question on the BR old school group to see if anyone there has the answer.

The photo referred to is indeed next to the 1500v dc line somewhere near Sheffield.

[spsmiler]

May 13, 2023 9:50:35 GMT burkitt said:

Rail transport for rail vehicles is still available today. The S stock was delivered by rail from Derby and the 24 stock is expected to be delivered by rail from both Vienna and Goole.

*and sent back to the factory for CBTC installation and returned to LU by rail!

(sarcasm alert) I need smelling salts, this outbreak of sanity is too much excitement for me.

I suppose that the rail option works out the cheapest when a large fleet of trains has to be moved and if sent by road would require a large fleet of specialist HGVs - and drivers - whereas if sent by rail many tube cars would be sent as one train.

I just hope that there are no clearance issues - especially on the route from Vienna. My thoughts are for the underside of the tube trains as I cannot imagine width / length / height clearances being a problem. 

[Chris M]

They will almost certainly travel without traction shoes attached, but you can be certain that they will be fully gauge-cleared for the routes they take.

[castlebar]

Photos exist of LT stock being loco hauled down to Bletchley, then the Oxford - Cambridge to Calvert, thence to Aylesbury and West Ruislip
There is one photo of such stock passing Quainton Road
And although that route is no longer available, it will become available again one day

[t697]

May 15, 2023 11:05:25 GMT roythebus said:

The photo referred to is indeed next to the 1500v dc line somewhere near Sheffield.

I think one can just make out CRAVENS or some of it in the sign painted on to the building at the left, so I assume this was just at the factory and the unit was coupled to match wagons and nearly ready for dispatch to London.

[d7666]

May 15, 2023 11:05:25 GMT roythebus said:

The unbraked loads in 1960-78 would not have been at all unusual. The majority of non-passenger traffic was unbraked and ran at about 35mph. The majority of traffic on the GC was unbraked freight..

Not sure if you are agreeing or not with me.

GE was mostly unbraked yes. Much of the unbraked coal traffic the GC carried in its latter days was actually diverted FROM other lines especially from the WCML in its 25 kV wiring electrification works phase.

My point was not about unbraked trains per se, they were common then, but about the GC was the primary unbraked route, so would have been used, while other traffic avoided WCML anyway.

[d7666]

May 15, 2023 11:05:25 GMT roythebus said:

The photo referred to is indeed next to the 1500v dc line somewhere near Sheffield.

Caption says Darnall.

Cravens were in Darnall.

Darnall was 1500 V DC.

So "somewhere near Sheffield" is maybe possibly ummmm errrrr ..... Darnall ?

And I put Darnall in my post with that link.

[d7666]

Question.

Possibly daft. Maybe I have misunderstood something. But here goes.

When was the link at Ruislip opened between Central and Met ? I thought it was c.1970 ?

Not there when A60 stock was delivered ? If not, was Ruislip really the main line destination for delivery trains from Cravens, would they not, if the link were not there, simply have gone direct to Neasden ?

I can see some sense in tube gauge stock e.g. from MetCam going to Ruislip, but why would surface gauge stock be delivered there when there was, at the time, no LT surface gauge escape route ? Did A60 come back out of Ruislip on to BR main line then back to LT somewhere ?

Or have I got something fundamentally wrong here ?

[d7666]

May 15, 2023 12:27:29 GMT spsmiler said:

I just hope that there are no clearance issues - especially on the route from Vienna. My thoughts are for the underside of the tube trains as I cannot imagine width / length / height clearances being a problem. 

IMHO the Siemens tube stock articulation may be more of an issue.

Delivered by train from Wien does not necessarily imply they will be towed as a train, but could be wagon loads in whatever way they need to be, with or seperate from bogies etc. It /might/ even be worth a dedicated wagon set to do this - there are a number of precedents for international continental rolling stock (including trams) to be delivered on bespoke rail transporter wagons (and not just to overcome track gauge).

777s et al are articulated, but the articulation and scale and load gauge is different. Siemens tube stock is differenter by a long way. Case by case.

[Harsig]

May 15, 2023 18:40:35 GMT d7666 said:

… but why would surface gauge stock be delivered there when there was, at the time, no LT surface gauge escape route ?

I have it in the back of my mind that the western end of the Central line, at least as far east as North Acton, was cleared for Surface Stock. This meant that such trains could, from Ruislip depot, reach Ealing Broadway for the connection to the District Line.

[t697]

Yes, I've seen photos and descriptions that A stock was delivered to Ruislip, commissioned there then under its own power via N Acton, Ealing Broadway, Ealing Common or Acton Town to Rayners and Neasden. I think the JG Bruce book is one source.

[d7666]

May 15, 2023 18:59:50 GMT Harsig said:

May 15, 2023 18:40:35 GMT d7666 said:

… but why would surface gauge stock be delivered there when there was, at the time, no LT surface gauge escape route ?

I have it in the back of my mind that the western end of the Central line, at least as far east as North Acton, was cleared for Surface Stock. This meant that such trains could, from Ruislip depot, reach Ealing Broadway for the connection to the District Line.

ok ta

[castlebar]

May 15, 2023 19:06:35 GMT d7666 said:

May 15, 2023 18:59:50 GMT Harsig said:

I have it in the back of my mind that the western end of the Central line, at least as far east as North Acton, was cleared for Surface Stock. This meant that such trains could, from Ruislip depot, reach Ealing Broadway for the connection to the District Line.

ok ta

Absolutely correct

[roythebus]

Well, so far one reply from the RMweb: I have seen at least two pictures of A60/A62 stock being hauled along the GC to Neasden. The one I can find easily (Steam Memories: 1950's and 1960's Great Central Lines) shows B16/3 61463 hauling a set past Bagthorpe Junction. Date sometime around July 61."

No doubt more will follow. I have copies of LT Magazine from when A stock was new, I'll have a look through those when I get time.

C69 stock was delivered to West Ruislip. The connection to the Met was being built when I was a guard at Ricky, mid 1973 to early 1974. It had not been commissioned when I sadly left the job. I have personally taken a couple of photos of a C69 at ealing Broadway Central Line, circa 1971. It came via North Acton, cross over to the DR, then to Acton Town for use on the test track and in as far as Earls court and High Street. A week or som later i got a cab ride in one from Acton Town to Hammersmith.

In 1974 I became a secondman at Rugby where there was a lot of forme Woodford Halse drivers. None of them mentioned hauling underground stock on the GC, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

There was still a lot of unbraked and partially fitted freight on the WCML in my time on there, the GC had been closed by then.

[jimbo]

After commissioning at Ruislip Depot, A stock did test runs to and from North Acton. This was before delivery via Ealing Broadway link to District Line. I believe the Central Line west end still maintains surface stock clearance for track maintenance machines from Ruislip.

[Dstock7080]

May 15, 2023 18:40:35 GMT d7666 said:

When was the link at Ruislip opened between Central and Met ? I thought it was c.1970 ?

Taken from a post on this Forum by a former poster:

24.07.73 - First use of Ruislip Siding for stock move(s) – points hand-worked.

28.09.75 - New IMR commissioned at Ruislip Siding. New siding between Metropolitan/Piccadilly lines and Ruislip depot commissioned and electrified. Control of signalling from Rayners Lane cabin.

[towerman]

May 15, 2023 18:40:35 GMT d7666 said:

Question.

Possibly daft. Maybe I have misunderstood something. But here goes.

When was the link at Ruislip opened between Central and Met ? I thought it was c.1970 ?

Not there when A60 stock was delivered ? If not, was Ruislip really the main line destination for delivery trains from Cravens, would they not, if the link were not there, simply have gone direct to Neasden ?

I can see some sense in tube gauge stock e.g. from MetCam going to Ruislip, but why would surface gauge stock be delivered there when there was, at the time, no LT surface gauge escape route ? Did A60 come back out of Ruislip on to BR main line then back to LT somewhere ?

Or have I got something fundamentally wrong here ?

Ruislip was the depot for new stock commissioning at the time,stock came from the builders just bodies and bogies,motors,compressors ,MAs & shogear was fitted at Ruislip.

[jimbo]

Was this envisaged when the depot was built? How was there so much undercover space?

[d7666]

May 15, 2023 19:18:03 GMT roythebus said:

In 1974 ............

There was still a lot of unbraked and partially fitted freight on the WCML in my time on there, the GC had been closed by then.

Unbraked freight was never eliminated then, nor reduced per se, I was not saying that; the relevant point here is that c.1958 to 1966 as much freight as possible, braked as well as unbraked, was diverted away from WCML during the electrification works which was the exact period when A60/62 stock was delivered; freight went via circuituitous routes, and quite a bit went on the GC, especially wagonload coal. 0nce the wires reached Euston, this freight returned. Had ECML wiring started, GC would have taken freight off GN for the duration.

[roythebus]

Yep, sounds right.