Door speeds on S stock

[Deleted]

So, to go along with the thread on door speeds on the 2009TS, here's one on the S stock!

Given that the S stock will be serving lines that don't regularly experience the "OMG LOTSA PEOPLES RIDING TEH TRAIN" conditions that the Victoria Line does, will the doors be designed to cope with the various types of usage they will experience? (i.e. constant open/close on the C&H as opposed to open-every-few-minutes on the Met).

Also, will the doors still be pneumatic or will they be electric? If they are electric, how easily will they be opened using the emergency door release control? Will the doors be strong enough to stay closed when the T/Op coshes it or when the ATO chucks a wobbly and coshes it?

How will door operation be related to the door chimes? What will be the operation sequence when the driver presses the Door Close button? Will the drivers have the ability to play the chimes independently of operating the doors?

Will Selective Door Opening, controllable only by the T/Op, be more rigorously used thanks to the wonderful and perfectly reliable A/C on every train? ;D

As as aside, what sort of external door controls will be provided? Seeing as how old-skool car ends will be eliminated thanks to the through gangways, how will platform staff and/or T/Ops do their tipping-out?

Finally, how big will the windows in the doors be?

[johnb]

As as aside, what sort of external door controls will be provided? Seeing as how old-skool car ends will be eliminated thanks to the through gangways, how will platform staff and/or T/Ops do their tipping-out?

The comprehensive tipping-out process is neccessary on current LUL stock because of the unfortunate chap who panicked after getting left on an out-of-service train and fell to his death while running through the inter-carriage doors.

Given that the S-stock will be a continuous corridor with no means of falling out, perhaps the requirements could be relaxed?

John B

[Deleted]

I doubt it. The common sense scenario would be a T/Op opening his J door, looking down the saloon, seeing nobody, and then closing the doors.

Since this is common sense and thus difficult to see happening, I feel that external door controls of some kind will be needed. Perhaps it will be as simple as a pair of RKL220-operated door close buttons on the sides of the gangway connections of the UNDMs - one per unit. Driver inserts key, turns switch on, sticks his head in the nearest door, verifies empty saloon, bashes button, sees the doors close, removes key, returns to cab, uses J door to verify empty train, then re-inserts RKL220 key and heads off.

[Deleted]

theonekea said:

I doubt it. The common sense scenario would be a T/Op opening his J door, looking down the saloon, seeing nobody, and then closing the doors.

That doesn't sound adequate to me for looking along a 360 feet long train, especially if some of the seats are sideways. Also track curvature may mean it is not always possible to see the length of the train.

I feel that external door controls of some kind will be needed. Perhaps it will be as simple as a pair of RKL220-operated door close buttons on the sides of the gangway connections of the UNDMs - one per unit. Driver inserts key, turns switch on, sticks his head in the nearest door, verifies empty saloon, bashes button, sees the doors close, removes key, returns to cab, uses J door to verify empty train, then re-inserts RKL220 key and heads off.

I doubt we would have RKL-220 operated buttons because station staff are not issued with RKL keys and so could not assist with detraining as they do at present if you're lucky.

If there are in-cab monitors for viewing the saloon CCTV cameras, could they be used to verify that the train is empty?

[Deleted]

adw said:

That doesn't sound adequate to me for looking along a 360 feet long train, especially if some of the seats are sideways. Also track curvature may mean it is not always possible to see the length of the train.

This is true, but are any of the tipping-out points on the District curved?

adw said:

I doubt we would have RKL-220 operated buttons because station staff are not issued with RKL keys and so could not assist with detraining as they do at present if you're lucky.

Ahhh, I had totally forgotten about station staff assistance!

Still, the buttons are going to either have to be positioned in a very hard-to-reach place to prevent abuse, or are goingto have to have some sort of locking mechanism on them to prevent abuse.

Perhaps the button can be set beneath a small door, openable with a J door key?

adw said:

If there are in-cab monitors for viewing the saloon CCTV cameras, could they be used to verify that the train is empty?

That would be different!

[Deleted]

Well this matter of detrainment is an excellent question indeed ...(to be expected of TheOneKEA of course) !

The t/op will obviously have to walk through the train rather than along the platform, to prevent passengers walking through whilst doors are closed from the outside. However this requires a means of closing doors and re-opening them from the inside. However if station staff are inside, they need to be able to get out when all the doors are closed. Hmmmm. Looking down the length of the train's not an option ..vagrants and drunks manage to curl into the smallest of positions and transverse seating will prevent viewing someone curled round those facing seats. CCTV may spot a sleeper ...but then you've still got to remove them before you can get the doors closed, and you can't view all 8 cars at the same time, so if you'd have to view all again after doors are closed and potentially keep doing this as passengers jump on !

(The fact everyone is standing on the platform and the train is empty does not for one moment make the "penny drop" with some passengers running down the stairs ... watch Barking e/b any time for evidence of this !! ;D ;D )

Anyway ...good one TheOneKEA ... I can't think of a good solution ..so look forward to the official answer in due course !!

[Deleted]

theonekea said:

are any of the tipping-out points on the District curved?

If the train is defective then the next station is the tipping out point, wherever it might happen to be. So yes, some of them are definitely curved!

Perhaps the button can be set beneath a small door, openable with a J door key?

Nice idea, but half the station staff don't even have J door keys.

Anyone know what the system is on the Electrostars? I travel on them often enough, but I've never thought to see how they are detrained.

[Deleted]

adw said:

If there are in-cab monitors for viewing the saloon CCTV cameras, could they be used to verify that the train is empty?

As the 95 and 96 stocks currently have this I assume this will definatly be on the S stock

[Deleted]

adw said:

Anyone know what the system is on the Electrostars? I travel on them often enough, but I've never thought to see how they are detrained.

Porter buttons at car ends, just like ours..

[donnytom]

As well as passengers, won't the checks need to be thorough so staff can spot suspicious packages, which could probably be hidden from the view of CCTV?

[Deleted]

Interesting thread. With continuous gangwayed trains, then the risk of passengers falling between cars is eliminated, however I'm sure the HSE (or whatever the railway part of it is called this week) will still use the shunt signalling issue as well to enforce tipping out. Strangely the DLR doesn't have the shunt signalling issue or the passengers falling between cars issue, but still has to tip when reversing at Bank and Crossharbour (and other beyond platform locations). Does anyone know if trains are checked to be empty on Stansted's AGT when it reverses between it's outbound and inbound routes, I've always travelled from the "inner" station?

I would expect that the S-stock will have porter buttons at the car ends, with tipping out done in the same way as at present.

Although if the corridors are wide it is possible to get unobstructed views of most of interior, this method of closing all of the doors together could only be used at termini or reversing points with a dedicated arrival platform (i.e no passengers will jump onto the train at the last minute). I can only think of one SSL terminus where this may be done, and that is Amersham. So really the present method of tipping out would be most suitable.

Just out of interest, one of the few other metro systems which always has to tip out at reverse beyond platforms termini, is the NYC subway. This is mainly due to Union concerns about staff safety on what are supposed to be empty trains. The doors are closed after a reasonable dwell, then a member of staff walks along the train inspecting the cars through the windows. If anyone is seen to be left on the train, a door (one per car side) can be keyed open for that person to be removed, and the door keyed closed afterwards.

Tokyo has fast tip outs, with a member of staff per car. But labour is cheaper in Japan!

I have observed trains being reversed without any tipping out in Paris (where I "accidently" ended up riding Line 14s headshunt), Madrid, Vienna, Berlin, Washington, and Lisbon. Maybe they have the right attitute when it comes to stupid passengers!

[prjb]

theonekea said:

Given that the S stock will be serving lines that don't regularly experience the "OMG LOTSA PEOPLES RIDING TEH TRAIN" conditions that the Victoria Line does, will the doors be designed to cope with the various types of usage they will experience? (i.e. constant open/close on the C&H as opposed to open-every-few-minutes on the Met).

The doors are key to so many factors for the Infraco, not least their Journey Time Capability (JTC) targets, which is what they get penalised for if they don't meet. Dwell time management is an important part of this so the doors design is a delicate area that we all want to get right.

theonekea said:

Also, will the doors still be pneumatic or will they be electric? If they are electric, how easily will they be opened using the emergency door release control? Will the doors be strong enough to stay closed when the T/Op coshes it or when the ATO chucks a wobbly and coshes it?

The doors will be electric. Not sure what you mean by emergency release, do you mean butterfly cocks or the emergency open feature which replaces the conventional CSDE system? The doors will stay closed under all conditions.

theonekea said:

How will door operation be related to the door chimes?

As with most door details - this is still ongoing, I would hope that there will be no delay (as in 3 seconds of chime and then doors close).

theonekea said:

What will be the operation sequence when the driver presses the Door Close button?

Can you expand on this?

theonekea said:

Will the drivers have the ability to play the chimes independently of operating the doors?

I would not think so.

theonekea said:

Will Selective Door Opening, controllable only by the T/Op, be more rigorously used thanks to the wonderful and perfectly reliable A/C on every train? ;D

Selective Door Opening is a system that keeps certain doors closed dependant on location and will not be controllable by the T'Op. I may have completely missed your point here (my fault not yours) but are you thinking of Selective Close? Just in case, 'S' will ot have selective close in the traditional sense.

theonekea said:

As as aside, what sort of external door controls will be provided? Seeing as how old-skool car ends will be eliminated thanks to the through gangways, how will platform staff and/or T/Ops do their tipping-out?

Forget Porter buttons in there current form, they are not featured. This is partly due to gangways, partly due to misuse, and partly due to vehicle asthetics.

theonekea said:

Finally, how big will the windows in the doors be?

Not sure on exact measurements, mainly because BTUK do not produce scaled plans anymore. With the advent of modern CAD all the measurements are held on the computer system and traditional blue prints are a thing of the past. I will ask and see what I can find out.

[prjb]

aspect said:

The t/op will obviously have to walk through the train rather than along the platform, to prevent passengers walking through whilst doors are closed from the outside. However this requires a means of closing doors and re-opening them from the inside. However if station staff are inside, they need to be able to get out when all the doors are closed.

The driver will have the option to detrain from the platform or inside the vehicle. Station staff will detrain in the normal way they do today.

[prjb]

jim said:

adw said:

If there are in-cab monitors for viewing the saloon CCTV cameras, could they be used to verify that the train is empty?

As the 95 and 96 stocks currently have this I assume this will definatly be on the S stock

Yes, most definately. Not sure that you can use CCTV as a complete means of detraining though (for the reasons aspect has stated).

[Deleted]

prjb said:

theonekea said:

Given that the S stock will be serving lines that don't regularly experience the "OMG LOTSA PEOPLES RIDING TEH TRAIN" conditions that the Victoria Line does, will the doors be designed to cope with the various types of usage they will experience? (i.e. constant open/close on the C&H as opposed to open-every-few-minutes on the Met).

The doors are key to so many factors for the Infraco, not least their Journey Time Capability (JTC) targets, which is what they get penalised for if they don't meet. Dwell time management is an important part of this so the doors design is a delicate area that we all want to get right.

Indeed.

prjb said:

The doors will be electric. Not sure what you mean by emergency release, do you mean butterfly cocks or the emergency open feature which replaces the conventional CSDE system? The doors will stay closed under all conditions.

I mean the internal J-key-secured emergency detrainment release. Since the doors are electric, what will be provided to release the doors from the outside of the train?

prjb said:

As with most door details - this is still ongoing, I would hope that there will be no delay (as in 3 seconds of chime and then doors close).

Good.

prjb said:

Can you expand on this?

The exact event loop when operating the doors seems to differ from stock to stock. On some stocks, the start of door closure and the start of the chimes coincide, while on others, the chimes play for a bit, then stop when the doors begin to close, while on others, the chimes continue to play while the door is closing (a la D stock).

Standardising on a single event chain for the S stock would seem to bring an advantage IMO, as the T/Op would know that hitting the Door Close button is not going to result in people getting stuck.

prjb said:

I would not think so.

Which IMO is a Bad Idea. Being able to do that when the doors have been open for a long time will keep people from hurling themselves through the doorways and possibly getting stuck.

prjb said:

Selective Door Opening is a system that keeps certain doors closed dependant on location and will not be controllable by the T'Op. I may have completely missed your point here (my fault not yours) but are you thinking of Selective Close? Just in case, 'S' will ot have selective close in the traditional sense.

I meant Selective
Door Close, i.e. something that closes most of the doors but leaves a few open.

If this is not available, the A/C will be wasting energy cooling or heating a saloon open to the outside world; what will the S stock have?

prjb said:

Forget Porter buttons in there current form, they are not featured. This is partly due to gangways, partly due to misuse, and partly due to vehicle asthetics.

So, to answer the previous posts, exactly what sort of external door closure mechanism will be provided to allow for the tipping-out?

And for that matter, what will the tipping-out procedure be? You dismiss the presence of porter buttons and then state that station staff will be tipping-out S stock in the same way as A/C/D stock, which is clearly not the case as you haven't yet told us how BTUK plans on allowing individual car doors to be shut without allowing stragglers to wander into said cars via the gangways

The option to allow the T/Op to do a tipping-out from or near the cab will definitely make stephenk happy ;D

prjb said:

theonekea said:

Finally, how big will the windows in the doors be?

Not sure on exact measurements, mainly because BTUK do not produce scaled plans anymore. With the advent of modern CAD all the measurements are held on the computer system and traditional blue prints are a thing of the past. I will ask and see what I can find out.

Excellent. Having large, knee-to-head-height windows will be a plus in providing a good environment inside the train.

[prjb]

I am trying my best to be as open as I can be on this subject, but it is still ongoing and a very delicate subject. So here goes:

In the unlikely event of a failure, there will be a butterfly type cock on the outside which will effect a mechanical release of the door mechanism.

The 'event loop' for the door closing cycle is still ongoing at this time. The only bonus which is obvious is that with the SSR being totally operated by 'S' whatever solution will be universal!

I cannot see the driver having the option to sound close chimes without the doors actually closing. Customers would get used to this and would end up just ignoring the chimes and thus defeat their whole purpose.

'S' does not have a selective door close facility (as featured on a 'C' stock). They problem of air con and open doors has been looked at and a solution has been found. So to ellaborate as much as I can here, 'S' will not have a traditional selective close system but will address the problem of a loss of conditioned air to atmosphere.

We will not see Porter buttons as we know them today, but there will be a means of closing the doors from the outside of the vehicle. I cannot say exactly what that is for two reasons:
Firstly because the final solution has not yet been signed off,
Secondly because we do not want the general public to know how to close the doors on 'S' when they enter service. Posting the solution here would kind of defeat the point of making it unobtrusive!! ;D

The door windows will have the same top to bottom measurements as the saloon windows. The original proposal to have the windows dropping diagonally at the bottom has been dropped.

[Deleted]

prjb said:

I am trying my best to be as open as I can be on this subject, but it is still ongoing and a very delicate subject.

Why?

Are you being circumspect because the information is considered 'sensitive' and not for public dissemination, or is it because things are changing every day?

prjb said:

So here goes:

In the unlikely event of a failure, there will be a butterfly type cock on the outside which will effect a mechanical release of the door mechanism.

Good. How many doors will it release?

prjb said:

The 'event loop' for the door closing cycle is still ongoing at this time. The only bonus which is obvious is that with the SSR being totally operated by 'S' whatever solution will be universal!

Certainly!

prjb said:

I cannot see the driver having the option to sound close chimes without the doors actually closing. Customers would get used to this and would end up just ignoring the chimes and thus defeat their whole purpose.

Then staff will continue to deal with people getting stuck in the doors, forcing doors, chocking doors open and generally increasing dwell time because of the "OMG MUST GET IN TRAIN NOW!!!!!11!11" instinct that so many punters customers have.

(and it has happened to me, I ricocheted off of a 96TS at Green Park once...)

prjb said:

'S' does not have a selective door close facility (as featured on a 'C' stock). They problem of air con and open doors has been looked at and a solution has been found. So to elaborate as much as I can here, 'S' will not have a traditional selective close system but will address the problem of a loss of conditioned air to atmosphere.

Good.

prjb said:

We will not see Porter buttons as we know them today, but there will be a means of closing the doors from the outside of the vehicle. I cannot say exactly what that is for two reasons:
Firstly because the final solution has not yet been signed off,
Secondly because we do not want the general public to know how to close the doors on 'S' when they enter service. Posting the solution here would kind of defeat the point of making it unobtrusive!! ;D

Maybe so, but DD has brave enough to post the method for D stocks, so perhaps someday the method for S stocks may become similarly available. I'll accept your reasoning on this one.

prjb said:

The door windows will have the same top to bottom measurements as the saloon windows. The original proposal to have the windows dropping diagonally at the bottom has been dropped.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

[Deleted]

prjb said:

I cannot see the driver having the option to sound close chimes without the doors actually closing. Customers would get used to this and would end up just ignoring the chimes and thus defeat their whole purpose.

On C and refurbsihed D stocks, hitting the close button for the side that is already closed makes the door chimes sound. Will S stock deliberately prevent this?

It can be useful for getting away from a terminus, because some people just do not listen to any announcements but will react to the door chimes. So you make the door chimes sound, they all pile on, then you actually close the doors.

[prjb]

I am being cautious with the information I post due to the fact that negotiations are still ongoing and I do not want to cause any contractual problems to an area which is already proving dificult. Once the system has been decided upon and the whole functionality put to bed, then I will post full details. Some things (such as how many doors will a butterfly cock open) just haven't been finalised yet.

On adw's point, I would imagine that you will still be able to hit the offside close and get a chime should you choose to do this. I am merely stating that the CIS will not have a feature to independantly sound the chimes without a positive door close action on the part of the driver. I understand why drivers do this, and have done it many times myself when trying to depart Hammersmith on the H&C!

[Deleted]

In order to get round the problem of the cold air rushing out of the cooled saloon-air curtains are it, I expect.

EDIT: If the doors on the 'S' are going to be electric, will they be sliding (like the 09TS) or plug like (like the 375s)?

[russe]

I'm unqualified to comment on door technology, but Piers Connor made an interesting point in his signalling lecture to the LURS the other night about how much faster pneumatics were compared to electrics in respect of moving and locking switchblade sets. I understand the difference is significant enough to make an appreciable difference to the 'number of trains per hour' on busy lines.

Russ

[prjb]

The doors on 'S' will be sliding as on 09ts. This is mainly because if they were plug then they would hit the platform when opening due to the train being low floor for level access.

I don't think that there will be any noticable difference between pneumatic and electric door open/close times. I admit to not having looked at the stats here though.

[compsci]

Just an idea, but having been to a hospital recently (I'm fine, but my insurance company's bottom line is less so) I noticed that their lifts are fitted with strips of LEDs on the edges of the doors. These are green when the door is open, turn yellow when it is about to close (coinciding with chimes) and then red when the door is closing.

As well as helping deaf passengers, red lights may potentially be a psychological barrier to leaping through closing doors. They would obviously have to be made so as not to be visible in such a way that they would be interpreted as a signal.

[signalfailure]

I have head that they basically will be like the doors on Chiltern Railways 'Clubman' or 'TurboStar?' Units.
They both run Pnuematically and the only difference is Clubman trains close slowly and TurboStar close with a BANG lol..

[Deleted]

Let's have the Turbostar ones then.

[Colin]

Admin Comment: please do not 'bump' 6 month old threads unless you have something useful to add!

[Deleted]

prjb said:

The doors on 'S' will be sliding as on 09ts. This is mainly because if they were plug then they would hit the platform when opening due to the train being low floor for level access.

I don't think that there will be any noticable difference between pneumatic and electric door open/close times. I admit to not having looked at the stats here though.

I see. Is there to be any provision of access ramps for the disabled, in dorder to cover up huge gaps?

[prjb]

There will not be any access ramps (bridging devices) but there will be some form of solution to cover this eventuality. There are a number of proposals (many already in use elsewhere around the world) but as yet a final decision has not been made.

I have been meaning to talk to you all about 'S' Stock doors but have been a bit busy recently as the rolling stock side of the project is really quite hectic.

As the thread has been started I will give you some details straight away (as promised months ago!) but I do not have all the documents in front of me so please bear with me if I don't answer all the technical questions straight off the bat.

'S' Stock will feature:
Electric doors
Outside Hung
1600 width double doors (except on first set behind cab which are 1200 wide)
2m Height (mainly down to the low floor solution)
Auto Open (in some circumstances)
Auto Close (after a predefined period of time) to maintain the air conditioned interior
Obstacle detection
Anti drag (sensitive edges)

Thats the headlines anyway. For you drivers out there please bear in mind that auto open will still require a driver in the cab and will only work in ATO. In addition drivers can inhibit the auto open function if required. Auto close will still ned a driver to press the close and effectively lock the doors/gain pilot light. Auto close will operate after a pre-determined period of time and will be accompanied by auto-annoucements. Auto close will not give a pilot light and passenger open buttons will still be available.

Obstacle detection coupled with anti-drag will feature. Obstacle detection is the same old same old you see on the mainline today. I am very proud to see anti-drag featue on 'S' because having previously worked on a line where a fatality occured due to a dragging incident I vowed to push hard for this safety feature.

I will stand back and await the abuse! ;D

[Deleted]

Abuse? What abuse?

All you need to tell us now is what provisions have been made for dealing with defective/damaged/loose/hanging doors - I would expect an NR-style per-door cutout to be supplied behind a J-key-secured door, but I doubt the cutout can be used with the train remaining in passenger service (for very long at least).

I would also not mind hearing about what the new rules will be with regards to detrainment - has that been decided yet?

[Colin]

Obstacle detection eh? That'll be interesting once the punters work out that diving through the doors whilst the chimes are sounding.........................