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Post by Chris M on Jul 10, 2007 9:06:29 GMT
Obstacle detection eh? That'll be interesting once the punters work out that diving through the doors whilst the chimes are sounding......................... prjb didn't say what happens when the doors detect an object - they could increase the force they use
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Post by c5 on Jul 10, 2007 15:24:09 GMT
This obstacle detection, is it via a laser beam at ankle level?
The trams in Croydon had these when they first started, but soon switched them off as it took ages to close up the doors, what with the passengers still trying to get on. Or the local yoof breaking the beam!
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Post by Colin on Jul 11, 2007 1:24:28 GMT
prjb didn't say what happens when the doors detect an object - they could increase the force they use Call me a cynic, but I rather suspect it'll turn out to be quite the opposite
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Post by 100andthirty on Jul 11, 2007 17:09:15 GMT
try the bi-parting doors to first class on class 350@s and you get the idea without much personal risk!!!!!!
I suspect there'll need to ba a number of attempts to get it right. I have seen those that detect an obstacle and open, those that then have another go - or two or three - and those that open then sound a continuous chime and slowly but firmly close.
irrespective of the obstacle detection, they will be big heavy doors and you'll know it if one hits you
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Post by Chris M on Jul 11, 2007 17:56:52 GMT
Actually, if the doors bear any resemblance to those on the 09 stock mockup they might not be as heavy as you think, as I was mildly surprised at the weight of those - although they were of course not powered at all which will probably make a difference.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 11, 2007 19:43:25 GMT
Oh, there's always abuse!! ;D All you need to tell us now is what provisions have been made for dealing with defective/damaged/loose/hanging doors - I would expect an NR-style per-door cutout to be supplied behind a J-key-secured door, but I doubt the cutout can be used with the train remaining in passenger service (for very long at least). Ever on the ball Mr theonekea! You are quite right to point out the omission on my part. Each door will have an out of service mode operated by a 'J' key. The decision to run with one or more doors out of service will be a line/company decision but the option is there. The out of service indications (coupled with CIS) will also be used when the 8 cars have their end doors cut out or the 7 cars have Selective Door Operation (SDO) enforced at short platforms. I would also not mind hearing about what the new rules will be with regards to detrainment - has that been decided yet? Again this is more a line/company decision once the trains are introduced. It is interesting to note that any door on 'S' Stock xcan be manually opened. The two outer doors have a Staff Egress Device (SED) which is operated internally, and the central set of doors has a External Access Device (EAD) or butterfly cock to you and me! Although the EAD will not be a butterfly type as we know it today.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 11, 2007 19:45:45 GMT
Obstacle detection eh? That'll be interesting once the punters work out that diving through the doors whilst the chimes are sounding......................... prjb didn't say what happens when the doors detect an object - they could increase the force they use The current plan is to have them open to the push back only and then attempt to re-close three times at which point they will open to the pushback and await driver intervention (either selectively open them again or try for another close attempt).
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 11, 2007 19:49:05 GMT
This obstacle detection, is it via a laser beam at ankle level? The trams in Croydon had these when they first started, but soon switched them off as it took ages to close up the doors, what with the passengers still trying to get on. Or the local yoof breaking the beam! No, most doors will not have a beam. The only doors with photo electric cells (PEC's) will be the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations (RVAR) compliant doors and even these will have their PEC's disabled when the driver selects close. Because of the auto close facility (currently after 45 seconds but configurable) we need to ensure that wheel chair users or other customers with disabilities do not suffer from the doors auto closing on them.
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Post by compsci on Jul 11, 2007 20:37:52 GMT
Will the point to which the doors open for another closing attempt leave a sufficiently small gap that clowns who wedge their briefcases, umbrellas etc in to the doors to get them to reopen will have their plans thwarted?
Will there be any indication that the doors are closing on a timer rather than because the train is about to depart? I often see passengers leaping on to turbostars heading to Stansted at Cambridge because the doors are closing even though there are several minutes till departure.
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Post by tubeprune on Jul 11, 2007 21:19:28 GMT
Will the point to which the doors open for another closing attempt leave a sufficiently small gap that clowns who wedge their briefcases, umbrellas etc in to the doors to get them to reopen will have their plans thwarted? Anyone taking bets on how long this feature will last before they have to isolate it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2007 21:43:53 GMT
prjb didn't say what happens when the doors detect an object - they could increase the force they use The current plan is to have them open to the push back only and then attempt to re-close three times at which point they will open to the pushback and await driver intervention (either selectively open them again or try for another close attempt). I'm not sure what "open to the pushback" means! Are you saying that if someone persists in holding the doors then they will eventually open fully, regardless of what the driver does?
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Post by prjb on Jul 11, 2007 23:11:47 GMT
Will the point to which the doors open for another closing attempt leave a sufficiently small gap that clowns who wedge their briefcases, umbrellas etc in to the doors to get them to reopen will have their plans thwarted? Yes. The doors will open a certain distance and then stop allowing the removal of the offending item but not letting the person board the train. This leaves the final decision to fully open, selectively open, or close with the driver should the obstacle detection complete it's own automatic three attempts. Will there be any indication that the doors are closing on a timer rather than because the train is about to depart? I often see passengers leaping on to turbostars heading to Stansted at Cambridge because the doors are closing even though there are several minutes till departure. Again, yes. The current plan is for the Customer Information System (CIS) to make suitable annoucements ie; "the doors are closing for your comfort" or; "doors are available via open buttons should you wish to exit the car". Obviously these aren't the actual words, just my poor attempt to relay the rough idea!!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 11, 2007 23:17:40 GMT
Will the point to which the doors open for another closing attempt leave a sufficiently small gap that clowns who wedge their briefcases, umbrellas etc in to the doors to get them to reopen will have their plans thwarted? Anyone taking bets on how long this feature will last before they have to isolate it? I'm hoping that the fact that the doors will not fully open coupled with the fact the driver has the choice to open/selective open/re-close should mean that we maintain dwell times whilst giving the driver more choice of action. If you think about the commuter and his briefcase, there is currently a mexican stand off between the punter and the driver which takes time. In the future the system will cycle (which means in all likelihood the person will remove their bag after the first or second cycle) and then give the driver a choice of actions. Certainly I hope it will not be any longer than today. That said there are doubters in LU too, and so we can tweak the system or just switch it off should your fears prove to be correct.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 11, 2007 23:21:10 GMT
I'm not sure what "open to the pushback" means! Are you saying that if someone persists in holding the doors then they will eventually open fully, regardless of what the driver does? Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer. The pushback is the distance the closed doors will travel before the locking bar prevents movement. Just like on a 'C' or 'D' today, you can open them a certain distance (if their closed or past the pushback whilst closing) and then they will stop. 'S' will also lock the pushback once outside of station limits to prevent the leaning customer causing a loss of doors closed visual.
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Post by Colin on Jul 12, 2007 4:40:10 GMT
With regard to the last few posts explaining how clever the doors will be (thanks prjb!) - I know I'm gonna get accused of not 'thinking outside the box' here, but why does it have be so damm complicated?
Can't we just have open, close & selective close?
I take the point that the air conditioning plays a part, so I accept the terminus working - but I can't see how the doors themselves deciding to re-open up to 3 times, followed by remaining open, as being of any benefit to the train op or the train service. We run an intensive metro service and don't have the time to be fannying around with doors opening & shutting of their own free will!! JTM & all that will go straight out the window, along with our bonus for not meeting reliability targets. It just seems like it's being done because it can.
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Post by tubeprune on Jul 12, 2007 8:48:24 GMT
'S' will also lock the pushback once outside of station limits to prevent the leaning customer causing a loss of doors closed visual. Sorry prjb, I'm trying to understand all this. It seems to me that the S Stock will have: - Electric door operators - Crew open - Pasenger open - Automatic open in ATO only (at crew's discretion or always?) - Passenger close (?) - Automatic close after 45s (or whatever time it's set for). Is there a warning bleep like on the accursed Meridians? - Selective re-open but no selective close because of the auto close. - Crew Close - always available? - Recycling to push-back distance (about 4 inches or 120mm?) 3 times. One door or both of the pair? - After re-cycling, door locks open at push back position(?). Both doors? One of a pair? What happens then? Does the T/O re-open, selective re-open? Go down the train? - If the train ever gets moving after all this, there is dragging detection. I assume this works by detecting movement against the push back spring. Conventional stocks have push-back on only one door of a pair, so dragging detection won't work in one direction unless both doors of a pair have push-back. I assume they must? Will the push-back spring strength be less than existing stocks? How will this affect the pilot light circuit if the trains accelerate faster? - Finally, the T/O will need an instruction manual the size of the Gutenburg Bible .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2007 9:25:15 GMT
So there is no way that a door will fully reopen when an obstruction is detected, unless the driver decides to open it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2007 20:14:56 GMT
'S' will also lock the pushback once outside of station limits to prevent the leaning customer causing a loss of doors closed visual. Sorry prjb, I'm trying to understand all this. It seems to me that the S Stock will have: - Electric door operators - Crew open - Pasenger open - Automatic open in ATO only (at crew's discretion or always?) - Passenger close (?) - Automatic close after 45s (or whatever time it's set for). Is there a warning bleep like on the accursed Meridians? - Selective re-open but no selective close because of the auto close. - Crew Close - always available? - Recycling to push-back distance (about 4 inches or 120mm?) 3 times. One door or both of the pair? - After re-cycling, door locks open at push back position(?). Both doors? One of a pair? What happens then? Does the T/O re-open, selective re-open? Go down the train? - If the train ever gets moving after all this, there is dragging detection. I assume this works by detecting movement against the push back spring. Conventional stocks have push-back on only one door of a pair, so dragging detection won't work in one direction unless both doors of a pair have push-back. I assume they must? Will the push-back spring strength be less than existing stocks? How will this affect the pilot light circuit if the trains accelerate faster? - Finally, the T/O will need an instruction manual the size of the Gutenburg Bible . Egad. *reads again* Egad. That sounds WAY too complicated for the average day - if half this stuff ends up in use, it will be one of the biggest examples of creeping featurism ever seen!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 12, 2007 22:48:01 GMT
Can't we just have open, close & selective close? No you can't, so say thank you and live with it! ;D Just kidding! You will get open and you will get close. You don't need selective close because the train doors will auto close in order to maintain the internally conditioned air. We can't just leave it to the drivers to do this because on stocks with selective close currently it is very rarely used even in the coldest winter. I take the point that the air conditioning plays a part, so I accept the terminus working - but I can't see how the doors themselves deciding to re-open up to 3 times, followed by remaining open, as being of any benefit to the train op or the train service. The doors won't re-open three times, think of it as the doors attempting to close three times in the event they meet an obstruction rather than wait for a driver to deal with it themselves. The doors will only open ans hsort distance to allow the object to be removed and then try to close. If this fails then we will revert to allowing the driver to make a decision. It is quicker than the operator reopening all the doors as happens today, even on stocks fitted with selective re-open! We run an intensive metro service and don't have the time to be fannying around with doors opening & shutting of their own free will!! JTM & all that will go straight out the window, along with our bonus for not meeting reliability targets. It just seems like it's being done because it can. We expect this to speed up dwell times by taking the driver out of the equasion in most cases. I know this sounds contraversial but drivers tend to go into 'mexican stand off' mode or just reopen the lot. MRSSL would resist fitting this system if they thought it would hit their JTC.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 12, 2007 23:02:39 GMT
Sorry prjb, I'm trying to understand all this. It seems to me that the S Stock will have: - Electric door operators Yes. The driver will open the doors if the train is in a manual driving mode. Yes, for use when the doors have auto closed at a terminus or station with a prolonged layover. - Automatic open in ATO only (at crew's discretion or always?) In ATO only and the driver can inhibit the function if required. No. - Automatic close after 45s (or whatever time it's set for). Is there a warning bleep like on the accursed Meridians? The CIS system will make suitable annoucements (TBD). - Selective re-open but no selective close because of the auto close. Yes. - Crew Close - always available? Yes, drivers will close in all driving modes. The auto close function will not offer a pilot light as the doors are still 'unlatched' from a door systems point of view. - Recycling to push-back distance (about 4 inches or 120mm?) 3 times. One door or both of the pair? Both doors will recycle to the pushback and reattempt to close (x3). - After re-cycling, door locks open at push back position(?). Both doors? One of a pair? What happens then? Does the T/O re-open, selective re-open? Go down the train? Yes, the door will remain open at the pushback, the driver then chooses to re-open/selective re-open/ close. - If the train ever gets moving after all this, there is dragging detection. I assume this works by detecting movement against the push back spring. Conventional stocks have push-back on only one door of a pair, so dragging detection won't work in one direction unless both doors of a pair have push-back. I assume they must? Will the push-back spring strength be less than existing stocks? How will this affect the pilot light circuit if the trains accelerate faster? The train will almost always get moving, except when there is an obstruction and then the system will react quicker then drivers currently do. The anti-drag is operated by a sensitive edge in the door rubbers which becomes active once a pilot light is obtained. If the sensitive edge detects a dragging incident it will EB the train to a stand and alert the driver via the on-board TCMS system. The sensitive edge/anti-drag will not be affected by acceleration. - Finally, the T/O will need an instruction manual the size of the Gutenburg Bible . No, the system in the most part will not require any driver intervention (thats the point!) and where it does the driver is given clear instructions via the TCMS.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 12, 2007 23:04:17 GMT
So there is no way that a door will fully reopen when an obstruction is detected, unless the driver decides to open it? Thats correct.
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Post by prjb on Jul 12, 2007 23:08:31 GMT
Just to be clear on anti-drag. This system is going to save a life, no question. I think we are all aware of the Holborn incident back in October 1997 and I for one am proud to be part of a team that introduce this system to the railway. One day it will save someones life (maybe quite a few?) and I sleep easier knowing that we didn't take the safe option and choose not to introduce it. It is going to take some tweaking and that is what Old Dalby is for. It may need some tweaking once we run the first 'S' in passenger (currently November 2009) but it is configurable and we will optimise it. I am unwavering on this one.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2007 0:49:49 GMT
Its good to know that its spurred you into getting this function in there.
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Post by Colin on Jul 13, 2007 2:19:09 GMT
I agree with you, prjb, on the anti-drag point.............as for the rest, well, if I'm honest I still remain to be convinced. I'm looking forward to 'em entering service though, as we'll soon find out what will happen in the real world - and whether you upgrade boys have got it right or not ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Chris M on Jul 13, 2007 9:26:04 GMT
Will there be any indication to a passenger approaching a train from the outside that a door has auto-closed and that the passenger can then open it? Presumably there will be no indication that the door has been closed by the driver (or butterfly-cock equivalent), and is therefore not available for pax to open, other than the absence of any indication for auto-close?
Assuming one person is detraining pax from one end of a train and butterflying those doors closed, it seems likely to me that doors at the other end may auto-close before that person gets there. Will there be an option for an auto-closed door not to be re-openable from the outside in this situation (other than with a J-door key or similar)? This would seem to me to make the task of detraining easier by preventing people getting on, particularly at a busy terminus or when terminating short of the planned destination. The system would still need to let people out, but opening the door for a much shorter period than normal - i.e. just enough time to let people out but not to let others on, would seem beneficial too. If the RVAR doors are having a detector beam, this could possibly be used in this circumstance.
When a door has auto-closed will there be any visual/auditory indication at that door when the driver closes the other doors on the train, such that it is clear a pax cannot then reopen that door?
What happens when a driver closes the doors at the same instant as, or within the time it takes for a door to open, after a passenger hits the button to re-open an auto-closed door?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 13, 2007 18:14:55 GMT
I agree with you, prjb, on the anti-drag point.............as for the rest, well, if I'm honest I still remain to be convinced. I know, thats why I stated the anti-drag point and left the other features for you guys to make your own minds up. I'm looking forward to 'em entering service though, as we'll soon find out what will happen in the real world - and whether you upgrade boys have got it right or not ;D ;D ;D That is true, but sometimes you have to take make bold advances. The Victorians stuck trains under the ground and look what happened!! The key is that all these door system features are re-configurable and the first two trains are going to be utilised in order to optimise the system. It's really not as bad as it sounds, mostly you will just open and close the doors as normal (ATO auto open aside of course!).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2007 18:44:26 GMT
Well, for once prjb has convinced me! It all sounds good to me.
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Post by prjb on Jul 13, 2007 18:46:50 GMT
Will there be any indication to a passenger approaching a train from the outside that a door has auto-closed and that the passenger can then open it? Yes, the door open buttons will be illuminated both internally and externally. Internally the CIS will also be making an annoucement periodically. Presumably there will be no indication that the door has been closed by the driver (or butterfly-cock equivalent), and is therefore not available for pax to open, other than the absence of any indication for auto-close? If the doors are closed by the driver then they will close normally and this will be preceeded by audible and visual indications. I also think your getting your butterfly cocks and your porter buttons mixed up here?! Assuming one person is detraining pax from one end of a train and butterflying those doors closed, it seems likely to me that doors at the other end may auto-close before that person gets there. Will there be an option for an auto-closed door not to be re-openable from the outside in this situation (other than with a J-door key or similar)? When the train is placed in platform close mode the auto close function will be inhibited and all doors will remain open until manually closed (as today). We don't really want the auto close feature to operate and then keep the doors closed in this scenario in case this traps passengers inside which may result in staff being subjected to abuse/assault. The doors will be able to be closed manually from inside or outside the train, which is another good reason not to close customers in, as staff would then be in a closed car with potentially angry customers. Again, I think when you state butterfly cocks you actually mean porter buttons? 'S' Stock will not be featuring porter buttons as we know them today (mainly due to not having car ends or anywhere inconspicous to place them!). There will be an alternative system in place but I do not want to discuss this publically (LU staff can PM though). This would seem to me to make the task of detraining easier by preventing people getting on, particularly at a busy terminus or when terminating short of the planned destination. The system would still need to let people out, but opening the door for a much shorter period than normal - i.e. just enough time to let people out but not to let others on, would seem beneficial too. If the RVAR doors are having a detector beam, this could possibly be used in this circumstance. The CIS will also be making annoucements and the driver has the option to manually close both internally and externally, in addition before walking back the driver can view the saloon CCTV system. When a door has auto-closed will there be any visual/auditory indication at that door when the driver closes the other doors on the train, such that it is clear a pax cannot then reopen that door? Yes, there will be audible and visual annoucements/indications. What happens when a driver closes the doors at the same instant as, or within the time it takes for a door to open, after a passenger hits the button to re-open an auto-closed door? Driver close/open always takes priority, don't forget that obstacle detection will be available too. It may be that drivers are advised to reopen and then close if this proves to be a problem, just as they are advised with selective close on some stocks today.
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Post by prjb on Jul 13, 2007 18:47:46 GMT
Well, for once prjb has convinced me! It all sounds good to me. Blimey! I'll pack up and go before my luck runs out!! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2007 18:48:02 GMT
We can't just leave it to the drivers to do this because on stocks with selective close currently it is very rarely used even in the coldest winter. This may be because Ashfield House now tell new drivers that it isn't used any more.
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