|
Post by Alight on Feb 15, 2024 9:11:57 GMT
There is no public consultation in the traditional sense for this project You are absolutely right. Where is the consultation? It is going to be sparking a lot of questions, debate and critique today but the decision has already been made... at the cost of £6+mn.
|
|
|
Post by ijmad on Feb 15, 2024 9:48:47 GMT
Liberty Line and Weaver Line are terrible because they're just too generic. Couldn't they have found someone or something important in the history of the textile industry or Havering's 'freedom' that would stand out more?
Suffragette line isn't a bad name per se but it is 11 characters long and and not easily abbreviated.
Lioness is very du jour, named for a team that has won precisely one international competition. Ironically, it might age well though.
I think Windrush and Mildmay are fine. Both roll off the tongue and are important parts of local history. Shame Brunel didn't get his name on the map finally, but if any line should have been called the Brunel Line, it should have been Crossrail probably.
|
|
|
Post by Jerome H on Feb 15, 2024 10:37:23 GMT
Maybe I’ve been in the United States too long, but I think these names are silly. New York wouldn’t even call a transport line the liberty line. As for the rest, you shouldn’t need a history or cultural lesson to understand which train line you are on. I see the international community struggling enormously with this and locals not adapting to these.
The purpose of naming the lines was to improve wayfinding and make the system easier to use. I don’t see how these names do that over the geographic names that should have been adopted.
|
|
|
Post by 35b on Feb 15, 2024 10:42:08 GMT
Liberty is a decent name, will be meaningful to those it serves and stick in the mind.
Lioness is poor, too timebound and unlikely to age well.
The other names are a bit too much of an exercise in naming by committee, focusing on worthy objectives but not actually doing a huge amount for way finding. Weaver is the best of them, but when I hear it, I’ll still think of the river in Cheshire, and wonder why a line in London is named after it.
|
|
|
Post by ted672 on Feb 15, 2024 11:10:50 GMT
It does seem odd that if you wish to travel to the Mildmay Hospital you need to use the Windrush line and not the one named after it! I think the money could have been better spent elsewhere at the moment unless someone at County Hall has won the Euromillions!
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Feb 15, 2024 11:18:49 GMT
The purpose of naming the lines was to improve wayfinding and make the system easier to use. I don’t see how these names do that over the geographic names that should have been adopted. Indeed, and it'll be even more confusing still when people see an Overground roundel in orange branding and then enter the station with the new line colour branding (the colours being almost the same as existing tube line colours). The average tourist doesn't care if it is Underground, Overground, DLR or Elizabeth line - they're just "tube lines" to untrained. So you're going to end up with more layers of complexity differentiating between Overground and Underground and then within that the different lines, yet the "Elizabeth line" has its own roundel... Yes, us nerds understand the differentiation, but the average person doesn't. As for "DLR", most people don't know what the letters stand for anymore and probably couldn't care less if it was light rail or metro! Anyhow, with no public consultation, we are where we are. I suppose if money was no object, the four aforementioned roundels would be replaced with one generic "London Transport" one and then have the individual line identities within it. That may simplify things a tad under the line identity model being proposed, but won't resolve the issue that we've run out of line colours!
|
|
|
Post by AndrewPSSP on Feb 15, 2024 12:19:15 GMT
Personally I don't use LO often enough for these new names to be part of my vocabulary for a few years yet It's great that the different routes have names now, but, honourable as they are, this does feel like a corporate inclusivity exercise to me I wonder how the consultation was laid out It's a shame the East London line has lost its orange colour I had a look at TfL's map for the Autumn - I'm astonished how similar the colours of the GOBLIN and the Tramlink are... content.tfl.gov.uk/tube-map-with-the-new-lo-names.pdf
|
|
|
Post by coldplayfan18 on Feb 15, 2024 12:26:39 GMT
Complete and utter rubbish
So are they getting rid of the London overground branding completely, eg. the roundels at stations, the announcements on trains…
|
|
|
Post by will on Feb 15, 2024 12:32:37 GMT
Think the names are a disappointment. The Lioness line could have been the Wembley line to pay homage to football but still give an idea where the line goes. The Weaver line could have been the Valley line for the Lea valley. As someone who knows London very well and its transport network ill be looking up the names of the lines as they aren't obvious where they go. Obviously the names will stick in time but the names are so no descript. At a time when 6 lines are having a rebrand something that has not happened ever it would have been helpful to give them geographic based names.
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 15, 2024 12:36:42 GMT
So are they getting rid of the London overground branding completely, eg. the roundels at stations, the announcements on trains… The trains will still be orange, the platform roundels and station frontages won’t change.
|
|
|
Post by coldplayfan18 on Feb 15, 2024 12:42:05 GMT
Oh ok. That’s not too bad then at least they are still keeping the LO branding.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,407
|
Post by Chris M on Feb 15, 2024 14:19:04 GMT
So are they getting rid of the London overground branding completely, eg. the roundels at stations, the announcements on trains… No. The mode is staying but the individual lines now get names. Just like there is the London Underground District and Victoria lines there will soon be the London Overground Lioness and Weaver lines.
|
|
|
Post by rapidtransitman on Feb 15, 2024 15:06:30 GMT
|
|
|
Post by ijmad on Feb 15, 2024 17:05:05 GMT
So are they getting rid of the London overground branding completely, eg. the roundels at stations, the announcements on trains… No. The mode is staying but the individual lines now get names. Just like there is the London Underground District and Victoria lines there will soon be the London Overground Lioness and Weaver lines. Yeah, Overground now joins the club (along with the tube, busses, and riverboat services) of modes that are also subdivided into idenitfied services. Modes that don't have their services subdivided are Elizabeth Line, DLR, trams and... the cable car.
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Feb 15, 2024 17:32:04 GMT
Very much the DLR needs subdividing into line names. Then suddenly London will have enough lines to make it possible to add questions into pub quizzes (etc) asking players to state which line name is which type of service - Underground, Overground, DLR...
As long as only Croydon has a Tramlink the trams will not need line names.
Anyway ... these new lines are very much a shock to the system (for me, at least). Yes they are what the Mayor said they would be - diverse, woke, different, racist (in a positive way), possibly even sexist. Also, almost political.
I understand the desire to honour the ladies of the Saffragette movement but the struggle is still ongoing and anyway who can spell the word without looking it up? (I cannot - my spell checker is flagging it as incorrect!!)
re: the hospital name, it is perhaps just as well that they did not choose Bedlam - in case the service started reflecting that name.
Having seen the explanation I can understand the reason for Windrush but to name a line after racial groups has shocked me.
The name Liberty is very daring and might yet become a source for regret - because it might be hijacked by protest groups wanting just that. I have the very under-reported ongoing farmers protests in mind, these are happening in too many countries around the globe to name them all.
|
|
|
Post by silenthunter on Feb 15, 2024 17:57:52 GMT
Call something the Suffragette line is akin to call something the Extinction Rebellion line as they employed rather similar tactics.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 15, 2024 18:00:46 GMT
There is no public consultation in the traditional sense for this project You are absolutely right. Where is the consultation? n. There was a consultation, inviting suggestions. None of mine were adopted...........
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 15, 2024 18:03:24 GMT
The name Liberty is very daring and might yet become a source for regret - because it might be hijacked by protest groups wanting just that. I doubt such a protest would have much impact, given the runtish nature of the line.
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Feb 15, 2024 19:21:37 GMT
If the whole purpose is to simplify things, I can't help but wonder how tourists are going to navigate a what is going to be an even more confusing tube map. Not to mention the new colours duplicate existing ones. Conversely, I do of course appreciate the arguments against the existing arrangement of long-winded route names.
Today I have spoken to a cross range of people from different political leanings, "woke" or "not woke", and the general sentiment has been negative / taking the p*ss out of the proposals (particularly the Mildmay geographic screw up!). The £6mn has been the most shocking part of it. I am hoping TfL are going to treat this period as a de facto consultation and take on board the feedback across social media at least today. It's not too late...
|
|
|
Post by johnlinford on Feb 15, 2024 19:55:22 GMT
Think the names are a disappointment. The Lioness line could have been the Wembley line to pay homage to football but still give an idea where the line goes. The Weaver line could have been the Valley line for the Lea valley. As someone who knows London very well and its transport network ill be looking up the names of the lines as they aren't obvious where they go. Obviously the names will stick in time but the names are so no descript. At a time when 6 lines are having a rebrand something that has not happened ever it would have been helpful to give them geographic based names. Metropolitan, District, Circle, Victoria, Jubilee, Central, Piccadilly, Elizabeth, Crossrail, Thameslink... None of these give a clue where the railways go. Even Barkerloo is fairly inaccurate these days (and not obvious if you don't know about the history of the line).
|
|
|
Post by mikebuzz on Feb 15, 2024 20:00:37 GMT
I like the names. The only one I really have a problem with is Lioness line - does not trip off the tongue (maybe should have been the Potter line).
For me the meaning behind them is of secondary interest but I think Suffragette and Lioness double up on the female empowerment angle, Suffragette and Liberty on the civil rights symbolism (Liberty could have been a Elisabeth line shuttle branch rebrand). I would have liked to have seen Brunel used for the Windrush line, some representation for those who helped create the infrastructure, and Jazz instead of Weaver to signify suburbanisation/moving out, a big part of London's historic social fabric.
The colours are great too - really work well on the TfL map, where I noticed the similarity of style of the LO lines and the DLR and Elisabeth Line (which maybe could be outlined/hatched like Thameslink to differentiate it a little). Would line differentiation based on a 3-line grouping of the DLR as per the TfL diagram map use the same colours or would one of the blue lines become brown? And has solid orange now been freed up for a future use of a tube line?
|
|
trainwizard
100 posts in 367 days on the forum. Close enough.
Posts: 125
|
Post by trainwizard on Feb 15, 2024 20:48:36 GMT
I think the Mildmay line refers to the original Mildmay mission set up by William Pennefather located in Islington, at St. Jude and St. Paul's church in Mildmay Park (which gave it its name). It was located near Mildmay Park station (open from 1880-1934), which was between Canonbury and Dalston Kingsland on the North London line — which has now been renamed the Mildmay line.
I quite like the name because of how it sounds, and more importantly the fact that I had no clue what it was. I've just learned about the Mildmay Hospital and its history, and this naming will help lots of other Londoners learn about it too.
|
|
trainwizard
100 posts in 367 days on the forum. Close enough.
Posts: 125
|
Post by trainwizard on Feb 15, 2024 21:10:13 GMT
Today I have spoken to a cross range of people from different political leanings, "woke" or "not woke", and the general sentiment has been negative / taking the p*ss out of the proposals (particularly the Mildmay geographic screw up!). The £6mn has been the most shocking part of it. I am hoping TfL are going to treat this period as a de facto consultation and take on board the feedback across social media at least today. It's not too late... Social media is a terrible place to take feedback as it tends to favour angrier and more emotive opinions as an algorithm to boost engagement. Plus, not every Londoner uses social media, and those that do may not use it for political and news discussions. I have also seen a great deal of misinformation on social media around the topic, so everyone's views may not be properly informed. Combine that with the fact that people are generally wary of any change, and the internet was guaranteed to get angry at any names chosen that represent London's history and cultural diversity. The £6m figure is mostly for new signage, new maps, new announcements, and educating the public about the changes, rather than purely deciding the names. Jago Hazzard's video when the figure was just lower at £4m is still quite relevant and explains it all quite well. The £6m is very little in comparison to other projects, like CLIP (£500m), one year of frozen fares (£123m) and a trial of off-peak Fridays (£24m). (Sorry I've sent two messages, please feel free to combine them)
|
|
|
Post by Jerome H on Feb 16, 2024 0:11:51 GMT
Metropolitan, District, Circle, Victoria, Jubilee, Central, Piccadilly, Elizabeth, Crossrail, Thameslink... None of these give a clue where the railways go. Even Barkerloo is fairly inaccurate these days (and not obvious if you don't know about the history of the line). The Metropolitan, District, Central, and Piccadilly line names are all derived from shortenings of the railways that built the line. Metropolitan (Metroland), Central (Central London), and Piccadilly (Piccadilly Circus) also clue into where the railway goes. Similarly the Circle line goes in a circle, the Victoria line goes to Victoria and the Bakerloo line goes to Baker St and Waterloo. Tube line names are storied in either a nod to their history or geography. The new London overground names may be derived from history but they are not from the history of the railway. Therein lies my gripe.
|
|
|
Post by rapidtransitman on Feb 16, 2024 0:34:36 GMT
Tube line names are storied in either a nod to their history or geography. The new London overground names may be derived from history but they are not from the history of the railway. Therein lies my gripe. Why shouldn't rail lines be named for and by the communities they pass through? Passenger railways exist to move people, residents, workers. Should there not be some recognition of the history of the communities they serve?
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Feb 16, 2024 0:47:43 GMT
Social media is a terrible place to take feedback as it tends to favour angrier and more emotive opinions as an algorithm to boost engagement. Plus, not every Londoner uses social media, and those that do may not use it for political and news discussions. I have also seen a great deal of misinformation on social media around the topic, so everyone's views may not be properly informed. Combine that with the fact that people are generally wary of any change, and the internet was guaranteed to get angry at any names chosen that represent London's history and cultural diversity. The £6m figure is mostly for new signage, new maps, new announcements, and educating the public about the changes, rather than purely deciding the names. You make a very good point there indeed. The reason I mentioned social media specifically is because there is no other form of consultation for one to have their say based on the proposed options (I'm not counting any small-scale focus groups they may have held last year). So really, the only way TfL will be able to gauge reaction from their announcement would be to read forums such as this one, media opinion pieces and social media - not ideal, I realise. The £6mn figure is absolutely for the things you've mentioned, but the point is not everyone thinks they should have been renamed in the first place. Or perhaps they could have gone for cost-effective alternatives such as the NYC-style lettering, which would have only required a few letter signs going up, with no need to replace every sign and map. The lettering option has the advantage it is more precise for each route; the six line names doesn't solve the fact there are multiple branches.
|
|
Antje
侵略! S系, でゲソ! The Tube comes from the bottom of London!
Posts: 605
|
Post by Antje on Feb 16, 2024 2:46:01 GMT
I understand TfL's frustration with the under-representation of cultural diversity, but line numbers and letters are appropriate for the large railway network that London has: look at Athens, Barcelona, Berlin, Île-de-France/Paris, New York City, Tokyo …
Even "Line E – Windrush" would be an improvement (like in São Paulo, and E as in East London).
|
|
|
Post by ijmad on Feb 16, 2024 12:56:42 GMT
London has always had names rather than numbers for its lines. Having watched a French tourist struggle to say the word 'Piccadilly', I empathise, but if you think numbers/letters would help, I feel it really needs to be done system-wide and include the tube as well.
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Feb 16, 2024 13:19:12 GMT
I suppose the other thing we need to consider here are the colours themselves. I wonder why they could not have kept orange for one of the routes - perhaps for the Windrush line, given that line was orange even back in the days of the ELL?
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 16, 2024 15:06:46 GMT
I suppose the other thing we need to consider here are the colours themselves. I wonder why they could not have kept orange for one of the routes - perhaps for the Windrush line, given that line was orange even back in the days of the ELL? The "amber" Lioness line is quite orangey-yellow, and on the latest maps the Circle Line seems to have acquired an orange tinge too. It shows up better agaisnt the white background. Some of the colours are arhger unfortunate though - the Mildmay Line looks like an extension of the DLR (I think it should have been pink, to match the red of the other half of the orbital route), and the contrast between the Elizabeth Line and the Liberty Line is not great - it looks like the latter is a branch of the former, rather than a separate line.
|
|