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Post by programmes1 on Jan 22, 2014 18:17:22 GMT
I have heard mention of a pseudo platform at Kennington can anyone explain. I'm sure others will be along later to add more info or correct what I've put but from what I've heard it's a pseudo platform in the software to help the ATO software cope with the loop at Kennington. Now that makes sense as the trains stop and wait their turn unlike a siding go in come out. Thanks. |
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Post by programmes1 on Jan 22, 2014 18:18:17 GMT
What are the boundaries of each new migration area out of interest? And which NMAs if any are still to be commissioned? Stations listed are the boundary points NMA1 High Barnet-West Finchley NMA2 Highgate-West Finchley/Mill Hill East NMA3 Highgate/Chalk Farm-Euston X /Angel NMA4 Euston X /Angel-Oval Still to commission: NMA 5 Oval-Morden NMA 6 Edgware-Chalk Farm Thanks I never could count. |
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Post by sawb on Jan 22, 2014 20:44:17 GMT
What are the boundaries of each new migration area out of interest? And which NMAs if any are still to be commissioned? Stations listed are the boundary points NMA1 High Barnet-West Finchley NMA2 Highgate-West Finchley/Mill Hill East NMA3 Highgate/Chalk Farm-Euston X /Angel NMA4 Euston X /Angel-Oval Still to commission: NMA 5 Oval-Morden NMA 6 Edgware-Chalk Farm Thanks for that. I had an inkling looking at the six month look ahead that the southern end of the line and Edgware branch were not TBTC yet as there are still closures showing before June. Would I be correct in thinking that TBTC within the depots will be done at the same time as the relevant sections? Also, does anyone know what stage the two remaining sections are at? Are they just testing now or are they at a less advanced stage? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2014 22:03:12 GMT
The depots are not fitted with TBTC. Trains enter into the system as they come out of the depot same as on the Jubilee. The only non mainline location with TBTC is High Barnet.
Testing with trains has started on NMA5 and is about to start on NMA6
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jan 23, 2014 10:13:52 GMT
I have heard mention of a pseudo platform at Kennington can anyone explain. A pseudo-platform is basically an icon on the signaller's screen which is treated like a platform. They are generally found in places like reversing sidings, and acts as a marker for the signaller to route a train to (a process known as 'drag & drop'!). When the signaller 'drag & drops' a train, the system routes it literally non-stop from start to finish, non-stopping any platforms along the way. This is very convenient for running empty trains at night, but less convenient if you want to hold a train in Kennington Loop awaiting its correct path. Hence the pseudo-platform has been added for convenience. There are also pseudo-platforms at unlikely locations like approaching High Barnet and Finchley Central NB, which have been added because the VCC would otherwise bring a train to a stand inconveniently close to the station, possibly over the points, which is undesirable because if something then goes wrong the option has been lost to re-route the train to another platform. This is a complete bodge as it introduces other undesirable behaviour into the system, an example of why Seltrac isn't really ideal for complex track layouts. |
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Post by trt on Jan 23, 2014 11:39:45 GMT
Just a passing thought... how does ATO ensure a train doesn't get gapped?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 20:20:27 GMT
I have heard mention of a pseudo platform at Kennington can anyone explain. A pseudo-platform is basically an icon on the signaller's screen which is treated like a platform. They are generally found in places like reversing sidings, and acts as a marker for the signaller to route a train to (a process known as 'drag & drop'!). When the signaller 'drag & drops' a train, the system routes it literally non-stop from start to finish, non-stopping any platforms along the way. This is very convenient for running empty trains at night, but less convenient if you want to hold a train in Kennington Loop awaiting its correct path. Hence the pseudo-platform has been added for convenience. There are also pseudo-platforms at unlikely locations like approaching High Barnet and Finchley Central NB, which have been added because the VCC would otherwise bring a train to a stand inconveniently close to the station, possibly over the points, which is undesirable because if something then goes wrong the option has been lost to re-route the train to another platform. This is a complete bodge as it introduces other undesirable behaviour into the system, an example of why Seltrac isn't really ideal for complex track layouts. Sorry that is not an entirely correct description. First bit is ok but the VCC/SMC has other methods of holding trains back from junctions where that is desirable. There aren't any pseudo stations approaching Barnet or Finchley Central. In addition trains are not routed via the reversing point pseudo stations unless they are actually reversing there. The only exception to this is at Kennington Loop. It isn't a bodge at all. In four years I can think of only 1 behaviour which hadn't been anticipated but obviously should have been. This has only just been found, if you work on the Northern line I'm sure you know what it is and a fix is being considered. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 20:23:27 GMT
Just a passing thought... how does ATO ensure a train doesn't get gapped? All known gapping locations are marked in the database for the system and there is a method of ensuring a train does not stop at such locations. Doesn't work if, for example, a train has an emergency brake application (i.e. it won't adjust the braking to avoid the gapping risk). |
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Post by trt on Jan 24, 2014 9:06:06 GMT
Well that's how I'd think it would work but that seems more complex and detailed than something as obvious as reversing points and holding points etc.
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Post by malcolmffc on Jan 31, 2014 14:55:44 GMT
Am I right in thinking that NMA5 may go live very soon? There don't appear to be any scheduled closures of the southern section of the Northern Line after 8th/9th February.
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 31, 2014 14:59:48 GMT
I don't have any inside information about NMA5 but it would seem fairly logical - from Oval to Morden looks fairly straight-forward trackwise, with only the siding at Tooting which is exactly the same as at Archway and Morden, which is fairly similar in nature to High Barnet. Perhaps they know the issues now in advance and can just do it.
Would be interested to hear from someone on the inside though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 22:14:48 GMT
Am I right in thinking that NMA5 may go live very soon? There don't appear to be any scheduled closures of the southern section of the Northern Line after 8th/9th February. There should be one more closure but there has been some swapping round of dates so maybe it isn't on the list yet. Still some testing to do at Morden especially which is quite complex with lots of routes that need to be checked to ensure they are all working correctly. So NMA5 isn't too far away but definitely not February ! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 10:24:00 GMT
Am I right in thinking that NMA5 may go live very soon? There don't appear to be any scheduled closures of the southern section of the Northern Line after 8th/9th February. There should be one more closure but there has been some swapping round of dates so maybe it isn't on the list yet. Still some testing to do at Morden especially which is quite complex with lots of routes that need to be checked to ensure they are all working correctly. So NMA5 isn't too far away but definitely not February ! Just noticed that 22-23rd March Kennington to Morden is closed. Possible live weekend for NMA5 (here's to hoping)?  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 20:16:12 GMT
Just noticed that 22-23rd March Kennington to Morden is closed. Possible live weekend for NMA5 (here's to hoping)? Well spotted. Since the comms to staff went out today I can confirm that NMA5 is set to go live on weekend of 22-23 March. No news on NMA6 until beginning of March after some testing has been done. |
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Post by malcolmffc on Feb 11, 2014 12:35:29 GMT
Am I right in thinking that once TBTC is working across the whole line, then they'll be able to get rid of SDO at places like Charing Cross?
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Post by sawb on Feb 11, 2014 13:51:56 GMT
I assume by SDO you mean selective door operation, in which case the short answer is no. Selective door operation will still operate at Clapham Common, plus there might be other locations, but that's the one that readily springs to mind!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 20:17:41 GMT
I assume by SDO you mean selective door operation, in which case the short answer is no. Selective door operation will still operate at Clapham Common, plus there might be other locations, but that's the one that readily springs to mind! I think you mean End Door Cut Out ? This is automated in TBTC as for legacy signalling. Because the stopping mark has moved at Charing Cross EDCO can be done away with (but needs a software change first). As sawb says Clapham Common will remain. |
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Post by malcolmffc on Mar 3, 2014 18:08:35 GMT
Is it still the plan for NMA5 to go live this weekend?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 3, 2014 18:31:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 21:33:36 GMT
There are some references on here to the "Jerkiness" of the ride on the line, which was very noticeable between Euston & Camden (Bank Branch) today, it felt like being in a car and the driver had put his foot on the throttle around 30 times during the journey. I am sorry if I have missed answer on this thread, but what is the cause of the "Jerkiness"?
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Post by domh245 on Mar 4, 2014 22:57:18 GMT
IIRC, The train is given a target speed which it should travel at, but the automatic driver can't realise use of intermediate values of power, it is either fully on or fully off, and to maintain a target speed, rather than use a throttle value which would maintain the speed as a physical T/Op would, the system will let the speed drop by a certain amount before applying full throttle for a short period to bring the speed back up, before cutting out and repeating
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Mar 5, 2014 0:56:42 GMT
Is that right? Surely theres more to it than that - it seems crazy that in this day and age a more sophisticated system can't be deployed than all or nothing!
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Post by trt on Mar 5, 2014 11:13:48 GMT
Is that right? Surely theres more to it than that - it seems crazy that in this day and age a more sophisticated system can't be deployed than all or nothing! I think it can use intermediate power levels, but the system lacks refinement. It's all too willing to go to full throttle straight away, with just a few feet of "all clear" it will accelerate as hard as possible only to hit the "amber" region a second or two later. It's like it has no appreciation of the speed it's already doing. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 12:08:28 GMT
95ts is getting a new software build with an improved motoring algorithm aimed at reducing the "binary driving" effect.
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Post by melikepie on Mar 14, 2014 21:00:20 GMT
How has the Edgware branch been? I've noticed they are closing the Northern Line early Sunday morning until 9am to test signalling
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 14:33:09 GMT
TBTC will be extended to the NMA5 (Oval - Morden) area in customer service from 1500 today (22nd March). Providing the weekend goes well it will remain in customer service from Monday 24th March.
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Post by sawb on Mar 22, 2014 17:31:12 GMT
How has the Edgware branch been? I've noticed they are closing the Northern Line early Sunday morning until 9am to test signalling Been wondering that myself, as there's only one more closure for the Edgware branch, showing as April 20th (the usual Sunday morning closure between Camden Town and Edgware, then Chalk Farm to Edgware for the rest of Easter Sunday, then Chalk Farm to Edgware on Easter Monday). Is the work running that ahead of schedule that the entire line plus depots could be TBTC by the end of Easter weekend? As an aside, what issues were expected to occur/have occurred on the Edgware branch that it was felt necessary to have the Sunday closures? Why were the early Sunday closures only applied to one branch and not the entire line? |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 22, 2014 17:45:23 GMT
Staying last night with HWMBO at Old St we took the Northern to Kings Cross, and I was explaining about the on/off nature of traction we were experiencing. HWMBO then asked if that was the same reason that the trains seem to dash out of the platform halfway, have a moment or two to chill, then scurry off into the tunnels. I guess it is, the trains meeting their max target speed for when in a platform, but can anyone confirm?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 18:01:50 GMT
How has the Edgware branch been? I've noticed they are closing the Northern Line early Sunday morning until 9am to test signalling Been wondering that myself, as there's only one more closure for the Edgware branch, showing as April 20th (the usual Sunday morning closure between Camden Town and Edgware, then Chalk Farm to Edgware for the rest of Easter Sunday, then Chalk Farm to Edgware on Easter Monday). Is the work running that ahead of schedule that the entire line plus depots could be TBTC by the end of Easter weekend? As an aside, what issues were expected to occur/have occurred on the Edgware branch that it was felt necessary to have the Sunday closures? Why were the early Sunday closures only applied to one branch and not the entire line? There is also a closure 5/6 April. You will see the Easter weekend closure disappear shortly replaced by new ones in May. No predictions on completion from me until some more testing is complete in early April. Before NMA1 was commissioned there were also closures of the Barnet branch. The reason for both is it provides a little extra testing time on a Saturday night without too much impact on customers or on starting up a timetabled service on the rest of the line (and certainly less impact than a full day closure). |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 18:03:33 GMT
Staying last night with HWMBO at Old St we took the Northern to Kings Cross, and I was explaining about the on/off nature of traction we were experiencing. HWMBO then asked if that was the same reason that the trains seem to dash out of the platform halfway, have a moment or two to chill, then scurry off into the tunnels. I guess it is, the trains meeting their max target speed for when in a platform, but can anyone confirm? That is usually the case yes. Alternatively there could be a speed restriction not too far out of the platform. A number of restrictions have recently been removed with more to follow over coming weeks and months as track and tunnel work continues. |
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