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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 24, 2006 8:44:29 GMT
Didnt the 92ts have sdo, until it was abandoned?
Handy on a winter's day!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2006 10:07:00 GMT
why was it abandoned?
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 24, 2006 10:12:48 GMT
I cant remember, I THINK it was because it was misused. I am not 100% though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2006 10:22:24 GMT
MISUSED? how the hell can you misuse a button to open doors?
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 24, 2006 10:33:38 GMT
PODs are proposed for S Stock but not for 2009TS - it's not needed on the Vic Line. There have been changing requirement for PODs over the years and who knows what will be decided.
The passenger close facility on the 92TS was taken out after a child was hurt when some idiot playing with the button closed the doors while the child was in the doorway.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2006 10:36:04 GMT
oh right, having a close facility is silly. On the 2009 they would want all the doors open with the heat of the vic.
Are the door close used on 95ts and other stock?
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 24, 2006 10:44:50 GMT
Nope, the driver [on the 95ts] controls the doors operation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2006 11:05:28 GMT
I suppose that TfL can't take any risks on that sort of thing. On the buses tip up seats are being removed
"TfL have had a few law suits to contend with. I gather some stupid prats get up, the seats flip back to the flat position and, needless to say, the idiot falls on the ground and sues TfL." someone told me. You couldn't make it up could you?
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 24, 2006 11:11:12 GMT
No you couldnt mate, something else we have "imported" from across the pond.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 19:45:07 GMT
Prjb...the 'selective close' facility you speak of; in what way would it be differant? I can only think of 'door close' buttons as an alternative to not all of them opening, but then how would a customer who wishes to alight or exit re-open the door? I know you must be sick of hearing this but I am a bit limited as to what I can say about doors on the forum. LU will complete the current review stage with MRSSL and BTUK in about a month and I am hoping to be able to say a bit more then.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 19:59:35 GMT
You will notice a distinct lack of postings by me regarding the contentious issue of air-conditioning. It is a subject that has caused much controversy on this forum and some very heated ( ) views. I would like to make a couple of observations; not about the rights of wrongs of air-conditioning versus opening windows, but about the way that the design decisions appear to have been made up to now, and the way in which this might possibly be handled from here. Beyond the point that nobody appears to like being told what is best for them, the next area of grievance is the fact that many feel that they have not been consulted properly on the issue. Some suggest that they have been questioned or polled; others say that they have not. Where questions have been asked, just as much damage can be done if the questions are not framed properly. You will get completely different answers if you ask:- a) Would you like air-conditioning in your cab? b) Would you like to control how fresh air is blown into your cab? c) Would you like air from the tunnels blowing into your cab? d) Would you prefer outside air blown into your cab or would you prefer air-conditioning? Each will get a different answer and, because every one of those questions is loaded (did you notice that?), you will get a completely different set of averages if you ask each question to a different group of people. You will also get a different result if you ask each question separately to the same group at different times. AND, those are only four possible variations; there are lots of different ways that this could be asked! Because this is their working environment, T/Os obviously want some control over it, and the general mood (as reflected through this forum) appears to be that they do not feel that anybody with any clout is listening - other than prjb. If the impression given to staff is that a decision has been made above their heads, there will be dissatisfaction. The correspondence in this forum has shown that this is perceived, by those who work in this environment, as one of the most important issues in the design (prjb has even acknowledged that point). It would now be sensible for Metronet, Tfl, etc to take note and to consider exactly how they can be seen to take on board the wishes of those who work up-front while complying with legislative requirements. At the end of the day, it is may be that nothing will be changed from the current plans; nevertheless, it is a PR exercise that really should take place. I think that, in this instance, the fact that there has been consultation with union representatives on the matter will not in itself clear the air. While we can draw aspects of this discussion to a close in this forum, it will not make any of the underlying problems go away. I think that the issues that have been highlighted have certainly exposed the high level of feeling that there is on this matter and that should be tackled. I think you are quite right CSLR. I am personally frustrated though at the lack of response we have had from SSR drivers. The System Upgrades team have tried really hard to engage these important stake holders and to date out of some 1000+ drivers we have had a total of 1 (yes, one!) comment. I had a lot of feedback from operators on the HVAC questionaire that I sent out but this was mainly because a 'light duties' driver offered to take them around and badger the guys to fill them in for me! The System Upgrades team is made up of quite a few 'seasoned' operators and we do our best to represent the operational railway (thats our primary role). However, we acknowledge that we must speak to our operational colleagues and are trying hard. This is the time that changes can be made, now is the time to speak up through official channels! With regards to the Trade Union Representatives, there is a laid down process of consultation that we must follow. The rep's are dedicated to upgrades and have a lot of operational experience themselves. They also attend branch meetings and raise issues for their members as well as report back. The main thing I am trying to say here (in this rambling rant!) is that we are listening, but nobody is talking!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 20:10:02 GMT
Thank you prjb for your reponse much appreciated. Apologise if i came across a bit arrogant but i do get a bit fed up with how everything and everybody is wrapped up in cotton wool just in case they have a heart attack from sneezing lol. Especially in this day and age of supposed era of improvement in everything, which seema more controlled then ever before. By the way i'm 32. We have more legislation on new build trains than ever before, and with 'S' stock we also have to adhere to the Rail Group Standards (RGS) too. I didn't find you arrogant BTW, I thought you were passionate and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm 35 and we seem to have had a few of the same job roles. I look forward to seeing the more up to date designs for the S stock and reading some of the final decisions regarding the ventilation, seating etc. I push all the time to get permission to post more details, I think the higher end of my departments food chain do actually acknowledge that this site is both useful and informative and so will allow stuff to be posted as and when it is released. Ill keep this short but regarding the tunnele dust. Unfortunatly it's all around us when travelling on the underground and will be for a very long time unless LUL decide to have a major go at reducing it through major cleaning. I agree to a certain amount it can be reduced by keeping the front cab door closed but still you used to get covered in it no matter what. Yea I know, your not wrong. I just didn't ever run with the front door open on a 56/59/62/72, or the side windows for that matter. It was bad enough being a guard and getting covered in the stuff! I also agree with the previous thread that it comes with the job and on the other hand passengers have no choice in the matter, they breath it and get covered in it. So when it comes to a trained train operator to prefer air froim the outside because they find it more comfortable instead of air con, what difference is there from a passenger who is also supposed to be covered by simliar health and safety and also comfort standards. Anyway end of it there. Again, I do see where your coming from. I hope that the emergency vent option is going to be enough to satisfy this demand, I think it will. When it comes down to it it's the poeple who control the yes and no rather than it can not be done or it's dangerous. Ultimately, for operational matters, the decision lies with me and my immediate boss. If we say it is an operational imperative then it goes in (provided there is a sound business case and a budget!). I have had some wins and I have had to bite my lip on others - mainly due to the cost, but overrall I am currently happy with the way things are moving. We will have a couple of pre-series trains to play around with, the first of which will hit the Met by 2009.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 20:15:00 GMT
Thank you but i'm already aware of the procedure. My question asked if there would be a designated piece of equipment, which is designed for sole use for side by side train to train transfer. With the new stock expected and all...... Unlikely to be honest. I have called for it to be supplied but I expect it will not make it to the final product for a number of reasons. Mainly financial, a little logistical, and a smidgen of the supplier not wanting to get involved!
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 20:18:20 GMT
PODs are proposed for S Stock but not for 2009TS - it's not needed on the Vic Line. There have been changing requirement for PODs over the years and who knows what will be decided. I will tell you guys as much as I can soon, please bear with me on this! Do feel free to PM me with rotten fruit for being a meany!! ;D
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Post by CSLR on Aug 24, 2006 20:37:22 GMT
With regards to the Trade Union Representatives, there is a laid down process of consultation that we must follow. I do appreciate that. I am sure the procedures have been followed and that all sides are working very hard to reach an agreement. However, there have been a few cases over the years where feelings have run very deep and the input of the reps has not, on its own, cleared the air. I have a feeling that this is going to be another such issue. That is why it might be worth spending a little more effort on this point than on some of the others and making sure that everyone knows that their input will help to shape the decisions.
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Post by agoodcuppa on Aug 24, 2006 21:00:18 GMT
<pickymode on> A comma in that sentence would make the meaniing much clearer. As written, it could be describing the Kray twins, a politician, an LU manager or a TU rep. ;D ;D <pickymode off>
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Post by agoodcuppa on Aug 24, 2006 21:04:54 GMT
The main thing I am trying to say here (in this rambling rant!) is that we are listening, but nobody is talking! You've certainly got my sympathy where that's concerned. Blood and stones come to mind when trying to get anything constructive out of some people. I'm sure they'll be plenty of "feedback" when the train are introduced for service and people get to work them. I suspect that many are so unused to being asked their opinion that they've forgotton how to offer one and/or think "What's the point, we won't be listened to".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2006 22:49:43 GMT
I think you are quite right CSLR. I am personally frustrated though at the lack of response we have had from SSR drivers. The System Upgrades team have tried really hard to engage these important stake holders and to date out of some 1000+ drivers we have had a total of 1 (yes, one!) comment. This trying really hard to engage us drivers doesn't seem to have filtered down to Earls Court. Apart from a very vague invitation to comment in the Newsline months ago, and the specific aircon questionnaire (which I did fill in!), I've not been asked my opinion. If you want more response, you need to make it much clearer that you're asking!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 22:55:33 GMT
With regards to the Trade Union Representatives, there is a laid down process of consultation that we must follow. I do appreciate that. I am sure the procedures have been followed and that all sides are working very hard to reach an agreement. However, there have been a few cases over the years where feelings have run very deep and the input of the reps has not, on its own, cleared the air. I have a feeling that this is going to be another such issue. That is why it might be worth spending a little more effort on this point than on some of the others and making sure that everyone knows that their input will help to shape the decisions. Again, I think you are right on the money here. In fact that is why I started this thread, in order to elicite feedback on an internal newsletter which was asking for staff to get in touch. A new SSR Newsline is due out shortly and our comms guy has put a lot of effort into trying a new format which may be better received and may therefore get a better response. He is also looking at other ways to engage the guys (and Gals!) on the frontline.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 22:56:21 GMT
<pickymode on> A comma in that sentence would make the meaniing much clearer. As written, it could be describing the Kray twins, a politician, an LU manager or a TU rep. ;D ;D <pickymode off> Yes, as an LU manager - I see your point! ;D
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 22:58:18 GMT
The main thing I am trying to say here (in this rambling rant!) is that we are listening, but nobody is talking! You've certainly got my sympathy where that's concerned. Blood and stones come to mind when trying to get anything constructive out of some people. I'm sure they'll be plenty of "feedback" when the train are introduced for service and people get to work them. I suspect that many are so unused to being asked their opinion that they've forgotton how to offer one and/or think "What's the point, we won't be listened to". Thats the problem! We will get tons of feedback when it is too late, now is when we can look at drivers opinions and try to accomodate them.
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 23:13:02 GMT
I think you are quite right CSLR. I am personally frustrated though at the lack of response we have had from SSR drivers. The System Upgrades team have tried really hard to engage these important stake holders and to date out of some 1000+ drivers we have had a total of 1 (yes, one!) comment. This trying really hard to engage us drivers doesn't seem to have filtered down to Earls Court. Apart from a very vague invitation to comment in the Newsline months ago, and the specific aircon questionnaire (which I did fill in!), I've not been asked my opinion. If you want more response, you need to make it much clearer that you're asking! I think this is a little unfair to be honest. The Newsline went out to all depots and quite clearly stated that we are waiting to hear from you. We set up a dedicated e-mail for this and left a phone number too. On top of this, here I am on 'District Dave' asking you to get in touch, and I don't think this has ever been done for an upgrade before. I have been asking you all to get in touch since April 28th and so far we have had 1 e-mail. If you want to make a suggestion, contact us. If you want to make a complaint, contact us. If you want to have a rant, contact us. If you want to ask a question, contact us. If you want to express an interest, contact us. If you just want to have a chat, contact us. I will come to you if you want. I am happy to do a rounder with you, or meet you in the messroom. I will welcome you up to Broadway if you want to call me and arrange an appointment. Get in touch, we will make it as easy as we can for you and we will be open, honest, and transparent in our response. Once these trains hit the railway it is too late, in fact the way things are progressing with the design it will be too late sooner rather than later so get in touch!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 25, 2006 0:37:45 GMT
prjb, I promised to send an email months ago regarding the S stock cab. I have not yet done so - for that, I apologise. The trouble is, my email is intended to be highly detailed; covering every possible aspect of the equipment fitted in the cab along with examples of job based reasons to back up my thoughts and ideas. I just haven't had the time to sit down and put it all together. I will have time to write it this weekend, and had planned to do so - I will now guarantee you will be reading it Monday morning
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 25, 2006 7:10:50 GMT
I think you are quite right CSLR. I am personally frustrated though at the lack of response we have had from SSR drivers. The System Upgrades team have tried really hard to engage these important stake holders and to date out of some 1000+ drivers we have had a total of 1 (yes, one!) comment. I had a lot of feedback from operators on the HVAC questionaire that I sent out but this was mainly because a 'light duties' driver offered to take them around and badger the guys to fill them in for me! The System Upgrades team is made up of quite a few 'seasoned' operators and we do our best to represent the operational railway (thats our primary role). However, we acknowledge that we must speak to our operational colleagues and are trying hard. This is the time that changes can be made, now is the time to speak up through official channels! With regards to the Trade Union Representatives, there is a laid down process of consultation that we must follow. The rep's are dedicated to upgrades and have a lot of operational experience themselves. They also attend branch meetings and raise issues for their members as well as report back. The main thing I am trying to say here (in this rambling rant!) is that we are listening, but nobody is talking! When I was driving, I had a shot at designing my own cab. The C Stock cab was so bad that I had to do something about it. After all, it had been approved by my Trade Union rep! I went round with a tape measure, drew a few sketches and redesigned it. I wrote a lengthy description of all the bits and pieces and where they should go. I submitted it as a staff suggestion. I even got £25 for it (it was about a week's wages in those days). Purely by chance, a design engineer at Acton found the file two years later and designed the D Stock cab round it. He didn't get it quite right but it was pretty close. And it is a better layout than the C Stock, isn't it? So, drivers can influence cab design if they want to. Get writing you guys and encourage others to do the same! It can make a difference. BTW - what do people think of the existing 9xTS cabs?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2006 9:23:12 GMT
The Newsline went out to all depots and quite clearly stated that we are waiting to hear from you. We set up a dedicated e-mail for this and left a phone number too. On top of this, here I am on 'District Dave' asking you to get in touch, and I don't think this has ever been done for an upgrade before. I have been asking you all to get in touch since April 28th and so far we have had 1 e-mail. prjb, don't get me wrong - I really appreciate what you are trying to do, but it is only through this forum that I am fully aware of it. 99% of the drivers don't read the forum. IIRC the email address quoted was accompanied by a request to let you know what we wanted to see in future Newslines. This did not make clear that you're looking for input into the design of the train. If you want to make a suggestion, contact us. If you want to make a complaint, contact us. If you want to have a rant, contact us. If you want to ask a question, contact us. If you want to express an interest, contact us. If you just want to have a chat, contact us. Now if you'd said that in the Newsline I think you'd have had more repsonse!
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Post by trainopd78 on Aug 25, 2006 10:29:54 GMT
The Newsline went out to all depots and quite clearly stated that we are waiting to hear from you. We set up a dedicated e-mail for this and left a phone number too. On top of this, here I am on 'District Dave' asking you to get in touch, and I don't think this has ever been done for an upgrade before. I have been asking you all to get in touch since April 28th and so far we have had 1 e-mail. prjb, don't get me wrong - I really appreciate what you are trying to do, but it is only through this forum that I am fully aware of it. 99% of the drivers don't read the forum. IIRC the email address quoted was accompanied by a request to let you know what we wanted to see in future Newslines. This did not make clear that you're looking for input into the design of the train. If you want to make a suggestion, contact us. If you want to make a complaint, contact us. If you want to have a rant, contact us. If you want to ask a question, contact us. If you want to express an interest, contact us. If you just want to have a chat, contact us. Now if you'd said that in the Newsline I think you'd have had more repsonse! Ah, I was under the same impression too. I've read the newslines and thought they were informative, but I didn't think anything needed changing to bring to your attention. Don't know how you feel, but how about an a4 advert sent to the SSR train crew depots blatently asking for ideas and suggestions which could be put up in the booking on points. Put the email addy etc on it. It may get more response from the end user. Its got to be worth a go. If its made clear in this ad that we (train crew) are getting an input there may be others willing to come forward. It doesn't need to be long. An A4 piece of paper thats direct short and to the point. It could be faxed to the depots or e-mailed to the TOM's or DMT's.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 25, 2006 11:12:03 GMT
As a suggestion, take up the top half the page with a big headline that says "We want your[/i] ideas, views, comments and complaints about the S stock" with the other half giving details about how to contact you. Make it bold, eyecatching, direct and unambiguous. Anne likes graphic design, I'm sure she'll have suggestions. Use every available method of communication you have - internal magazines, posters (in canteens, depots, booking on points, station noticeboards, toilet cubicle doors (you've got a captive audience there!), maybe even train operator information boards). Send it out by email to everyone, post it on any internal message boards. To all the staff here: you now know about it - make sure your colleagues do. Everytime you're talking about it, mention that they have an oportunity now for input. Make it clear that you know that they will be listened to. Get them to pass it on. Pass comments from others you've heard back to the team yourself. Prjb - maybe even get yourself and the team big badges made up that say "talk to me about the S stock" and wear them when you travel round the system. In short, use viral marketing to get the message out there. If they see it everywhere, staff will start talking about it among themselves. If there is a deadline by when you need the comments - say. It will galvanise people into not putting it off. Actually, use a false deadline so people aren't late accidentally.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2006 11:58:28 GMT
I suppose that TfL can't take any risks on that sort of thing. On the buses tip up seats are being removed "TfL have had a few law suits to contend with. I gather some stupid prats get up, the seats flip back to the flat position and, needless to say, the idiot falls on the ground and sues TfL." someone told me. You couldn't make it up could you? if TfL demand that from buses, why do they allow it on the tube?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 25, 2006 13:36:50 GMT
With regard to feedback on the S stock from current train crew (myself & my email included):
I don't forsee much of a response no matter how big the advert is - how do we give feedback when we have no idea of what's 'on the table' so far? The train hasn't been built yet. The design hasn't been finalised yet. We do not have enough information to base any feedback on!!
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Aug 25, 2006 14:07:01 GMT
how do we give feedback when we have no idea of what's 'on the table' so far? The train hasn't been built yet. The design hasn't been finalised yet. This looks like a comms problem. Colin is right - what is absolutely wanted from the T/ops is a WISH-LIST, not feedback. The latter surely (hopefully?) comes after the initial design is circulated. Having said that, I suspect what prjb means is feedback as to what is NOT good about current SSL cabs, and needs designing out of the new.
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