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Post by agoodcuppa on Aug 25, 2006 14:13:03 GMT
It's entirely possible to make suggestions without having anything except current practice to relate to. I'm sure there are aspects of current stock that all drivers will have an opinion on.
If they did nothing more than write in saying what they don't like about existing trains and with some guidance as to what they'd like to see in it's place, or how they think it should be modified, then it would make a tremendous contribution.
As long as people do nothing more than wait until a new offering appears in service and then sit in the canteen and whinge, then nothing much will change. Sitting on one's backside and saying "I don't like it" helps no one, least of all the whingers.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 25, 2006 15:24:07 GMT
Indeed Phil and A Good Cuppa, I do plan to base my comments on current stock's verse's what I feel can be improved etc.
I still think that most drivers will stay quiet though - unless they have some idea of what the likely finished product will be like. It's a case of give and take in both directions otherwise I can't see the wall of silence falling away.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 25, 2006 18:27:58 GMT
prjb, don't get me wrong - I really appreciate what you are trying to do, but it is only through this forum that I am fully aware of it. 99% of the drivers don't read the forum. IIRC the email address quoted was accompanied by a request to let you know what we wanted to see in future Newslines. This did not make clear that you're looking for input into the design of the train. Now if you'd said that in the Newsline I think you'd have had more repsonse! Ah, I was under the same impression too. I've read the newslines and thought they were informative, but I didn't think anything needed changing to bring to your attention. Don't know how you feel, but how about an a4 advert sent to the SSR train crew depots blatently asking for ideas and suggestions which could be put up in the booking on points. Put the email addy etc on it. It may get more response from the end user. Its got to be worth a go. If its made clear in this ad that we (train crew) are getting an input there may be others willing to come forward. It doesn't need to be long. An A4 piece of paper thats direct short and to the point. It could be faxed to the depots or e-mailed to the TOM's or DMT's. This is a failing on our part then, I will take that one on the chin and apologise here and now. I will consult with our comm's guy and see how we can improve on this further.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 25, 2006 18:31:40 GMT
prjb, I promised to send an email months ago regarding the S stock cab. I have not yet done so - for that, I apologise. The trouble is, my email is intended to be highly detailed; covering every possible aspect of the equipment fitted in the cab along with examples of job based reasons to back up my thoughts and ideas. I just haven't had the time to sit down and put it all together. I will have time to write it this weekend, and had planned to do so - I will now guarantee you will be reading it Monday morning It wasn't a personal 'dig' at you mate! We all live busy lives outside work.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 25, 2006 18:34:20 GMT
I think you are quite right CSLR. I am personally frustrated though at the lack of response we have had from SSR drivers. The System Upgrades team have tried really hard to engage these important stake holders and to date out of some 1000+ drivers we have had a total of 1 (yes, one!) comment. I had a lot of feedback from operators on the HVAC questionaire that I sent out but this was mainly because a 'light duties' driver offered to take them around and badger the guys to fill them in for me! The System Upgrades team is made up of quite a few 'seasoned' operators and we do our best to represent the operational railway (thats our primary role). However, we acknowledge that we must speak to our operational colleagues and are trying hard. This is the time that changes can be made, now is the time to speak up through official channels! With regards to the Trade Union Representatives, there is a laid down process of consultation that we must follow. The rep's are dedicated to upgrades and have a lot of operational experience themselves. They also attend branch meetings and raise issues for their members as well as report back. The main thing I am trying to say here (in this rambling rant!) is that we are listening, but nobody is talking! When I was driving, I had a shot at designing my own cab. The C Stock cab was so bad that I had to do something about it. After all, it had been approved by my Trade Union rep! I went round with a tape measure, drew a few sketches and redesigned it. I wrote a lengthy description of all the bits and pieces and where they should go. I submitted it as a staff suggestion. I even got £25 for it (it was about a week's wages in those days). Purely by chance, a design engineer at Acton found the file two years later and designed the D Stock cab round it. He didn't get it quite right but it was pretty close. And it is a better layout than the C Stock, isn't it? So, drivers can influence cab design if they want to. Get writing you guys and encourage others to do the same! It can make a difference. BTW - what do people think of the existing 9xTS cabs? You see, it is starting again! Are the admin recruiting anti 'C' stock enthusiasts? Hands off my 'C' stock!! ;D
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 25, 2006 18:38:01 GMT
With regard to feedback on the S stock from current train crew (myself & my email included): I don't forsee much of a response no matter how big the advert is - how do we give feedback when we have no idea of what's 'on the table' so far? The train hasn't been built yet. The design hasn't been finalised yet. We do not have enough information to base any feedback on!! Yes and no. You are a driver and you know what you like and don't like about your current stock(s). In addition, I bet you have a comprehensive idea of what you would like to see in your new office.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 25, 2006 18:42:12 GMT
how do we give feedback when we have no idea of what's 'on the table' so far? The train hasn't been built yet. The design hasn't been finalised yet. This looks like a comms problem. Colin is right - what is absolutely wanted from the T/ops is a WISH-LIST, not feedback. The latter surely (hopefully?) comes after the initial design is circulated. Having said that, I suspect what prjb means is feedback as to what is NOT good about current SSL cabs, and needs designing out of the new. It's a fair point. Feedback on the stuff we have already shown you guys in the first newsline, which at the time was as up to date. A 'wish list' is a good idea but as long as it is understood that we won't be able to provide everything on that list, the last thing I want is staff to end up feeling like we ignored them. In fairness there is some stuff on my wish list that just won't make the final design!
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solidbond
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Post by solidbond on Aug 25, 2006 21:39:22 GMT
I think one of the major problems with getting drivers to e-mail suggestions is that most drivers are not interested in the job once they are finished work. Since there are only very limited numbers of drivers who have access to internal e-mail, the responses will always be limited. Perhaps, and this is only a quick suggestion, if a questionnaire was put out offering drivers some of the options available, for example, and asking them to choose which they would prefer, there may be more response. Although, thinking about it, there is also the element, particularly at the East End of the line (OK - Upminster then ) where drivers think 'well - it won't affect me as I'll be gone before the new trains arrive' ;D
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 27, 2006 15:59:40 GMT
One thing thats Ive been wondering about is the destination 'blinds'. On stocks which have DMI's instead of canvas blinds, the font size is extreamly small when compared to what they replace, and usually quite difficult to read because of the size and colour of the LED's chosen. Granted train indicators are being installed at a number of stations, but sometimes one cannot see that and relys on the front of the train.
My question is, will the size of the typing in the desto blinds be smaller than on the canvas ones. If so, why? Also what colour will the LEDs be?
Many thanks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2006 16:35:29 GMT
One thing thats Ive been wondering about is the destination 'blinds'. On stocks which have DMI's instead of canvas blinds, the font size is extreamly small when compared to what they replace, and usually quite difficult to read because of the size and colour of the LED's chosen. Granted train indicators are being installed at a number of stations, but sometimes one cannot see that and relys on the front of the train. Th reason is the DMI are designed to show the longest station on that line - like High Street Ken on the district, therefore to say all that the font has to be smaller for some of the other destinations. Why they cant make it like the canvas blinds, i dont know?? Suppose though, if you look at the canvas blinds, most of the places are all diffeent sizes, as most of them fill the whole blind? I would imagine the LEDs would be orange, as most others seem to be.
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Aug 27, 2006 16:44:15 GMT
I would imagine the LEDs would be orange, as most others seem to be. All new LED signs should be orange; research has shown that this is the easiest colour for Visually Impaired People to see.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 27, 2006 21:34:35 GMT
One thing thats Ive been wondering about is the destination 'blinds'. On stocks which have DMI's instead of canvas blinds, the font size is extreamly small when compared to what they replace, and usually quite difficult to read because of the size and colour of the LED's chosen. Granted train indicators are being installed at a number of stations, but sometimes one cannot see that and relys on the front of the train. Th reason is the DMI are designed to show the longest station on that line - like High Street Ken on the district, therefore to say all that the font has to be smaller for some of the other destinations. Why they cant make it like the canvas blinds, i dont know?? Suppose though, if you look at the canvas blinds, most of the places are all diffeent sizes, as most of them fill the whole blind? I would imagine the LEDs would be orange, as most others seem to be. DMI's in the future will need to be able to display the longest name on the entire combine, not just the line. This is because with an integrated Customer Information System, you must be able to advise customers of delays on other parts of the network. I believe the longest name to display is High Street Kensington (?) when you include all the gaps and don't abbreviate. We don't allow scrolling on the front DMI either. The colour hasn't been finalise but I would imagine it will be orange.
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Post by Hutch on Aug 28, 2006 9:35:53 GMT
As a population were are all used to reasonable abbreviations and they are common in all walks of life. H St Kensington and High Street Ken (15 Char.) are only 68% of High Street Kensington (22 Char.).
In these former variants, the letters could be nearly one and a half times bigger – I would suggest that this increase would also help the visually impaired. My glasses are not always as clean as they should be!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 28, 2006 12:59:09 GMT
Those abbreviatiosn aren't 100% immediately obvious, High St Kensington is though. Other long ones are King's Cross St. Pancras (23) [Kings + St Pancras (18) Great Portland Street (21) [Great Portland St (17)] Kensington (Olympia) (19)
These probaby won't be needed on the S stock's display Mornington Crescent (19) Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 (23) [Heathrow T123 (13)] Tottenham Court Road (20) [Tottenham Court Rd (18)] Walthamstow Central (19) Totteridge & Whetstone (23)
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Post by CSLR on Aug 28, 2006 13:33:17 GMT
Those abbreviatiosn aren't 100% immediately obvious, High St Kensington is though. Other long ones are King's Cross St. Pancras (23) [Kings + St Pancras (18) But 'King's Cross St. Pancras' is already an abbreviation before you start.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2006 18:04:16 GMT
Other long ones are King's Cross St. Pancras (23) [Kings + St Pancras (18) Great Portland Street (21) [Great Portland St (17)] Kensington (Olympia) (19) The D stock refurbs already show Kensington (Olympia) as simply Olympia, as do the blinds on pre-refurbs and C stock. Surely Gt Portland St would be a reasonable abbreviation?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2006 18:05:39 GMT
Also on the subject of DMIs, noticed that some of the newer South West trains have very vivid yellow on black displays on the front and sides, really clear even in bright sunshine - we could do with some of them!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 28, 2006 20:19:33 GMT
Those abbreviatiosn aren't 100% immediately obvious, High St Kensington is though. Other long ones are King's Cross St. Pancras (23) [Kings + St Pancras (18) But 'King's Cross St. Pancras' is already an abbreviation before you start. True. I was just taking the name as its written on the index on my June 2005 tube map. I did forget "Crossharbour and London Arena" on the DLR (29) but I think this is now just "Crossharbour"?
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 28, 2006 23:07:09 GMT
Do they have to be LED's? Could they not be a small lcd display like a laptop screen (obv smaller though)? Granted one must always think of costs, but the canvas blinds with flourescent yellow as on the met appear clearer than the red dmi's on the central. Is it cheaper to have dmi's then blinds? If so then why isnt the differance in cost spent on making them as clear?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2006 16:55:45 GMT
LCD screens are too fragile and too expensive. LEDs are far better IMO.
As for side-mounted destination indicators, I say YES!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2006 17:32:09 GMT
As for side-mounted destination indicators, I say YES!!!! I definately agree there. They are very useful at Earl's Ct where it is not always possible to see the indicator board (especially for users of the Warwick Rd entrance).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2006 19:16:09 GMT
As for side-mounted destination indicators, I say YES!!!! I definately agree there. They are very useful at Earl's Ct where it is not always possible to see the indicator board (especially for users of the Warwick Rd entrance). Absolutely. Also useful on the approach to Earls Court if another train is coming in alongside - you know whether you want to cross over for it before you've even reached the platform!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 29, 2006 19:19:50 GMT
LCD screens are too fragile and too expensive. LEDs are far better IMO. As for side-mounted destination indicators, I say YES!!!! You will get side mounted displays on 'S'.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 29, 2006 19:20:44 GMT
Do they have to be LED's? Could they not be a small lcd display like a laptop screen (obv smaller though)? Granted one must always think of costs, but the canvas blinds with flourescent yellow as on the met appear clearer than the red dmi's on the central. Is it cheaper to have dmi's then blinds? If so then why isnt the differance in cost spent on making them as clear? Talks are still ongoing as to what technology is going to be used for the indicators, particularly the internal ones.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2006 23:25:34 GMT
On a related note to the train to train transfer and disabled access questions, do you work with the ambulance services to see if they can get their stretchers and chairs in and out of the new stock designs?
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Post by rdejones on Aug 31, 2006 16:09:32 GMT
A couple of aesthetic matters...
The S stock will probably be about for the rest of my life (I'm 28) and I really think it needs to be classic in its design. This doesn't mean teak floors (great though they are!) but styling and aesthetics. Firstly, lighting in the cars. Obviously the majority of this will need to be provided by fluorescent tubes. Clearly there has been a debate as to the best wattage of these in recent times as seen in the change on the 92 stock. Any lighting needs to be appropriate to read in with comfort, to feel safe in, to not blitz ones eyes when one is snoozing after a night out, or indeed the next morning. Thus, the way such tubes are defused I think is a critical matter. The softer the light, the nicer the atmosphere, yet, at the same time it needs to be practical. However, I don't think this ought to be the only source of light. I have always loved the round lights on the ends of cars on the Bakerloo and Victoria. The refraction through the glass screens in wonderful, and they soften the whole atmosphere - could something like this be done? I also think it would be good to have lights that come on over doors when they open. Again the use of a different form of light adds to the ambiance. It could also provide a source of light for the exit, illuminating the edges of platforms, after all, these trains will spend a lot of their lives outside tunnels. Might floor lights be a possibility? I quite like the blue lighting effect found on the Pendilinos, and the aisle lights on the Heathrow Connect Desiro's. What about led floor lights in the colour of the line? Another way of identifying the line. Secondly, the inside panels of the train. There is a lot of talk here of 'plastic trains'! The inside panels of trains is an interesting subject (to some!) I was delighted to see the removal of the Metro Cammel orange squiggle stuff on the D stock - it's foul - give me plastic any day of the week. It is clear that the S stock will be in the mould of what we have seen thus far. However, the exact hue and tone is really important. One thing that I am certain on is that plain panels will date slower than patterns. I have long preferred the D stock experimental car to the final product. I find the cream warmer and more friendly. The blue/green effect used is colder, and I think, less welcoming. On the other hand does cream get dirtier quicker, and thus, become less attractive? The same applies the the material used in the articulated areas of the cars. Is this to be a utilitarian grey (like the bendy buses) or can something better be done? The same, of course, goes for the colour of the flooring. Lastly, the very first shots we saw of the proposed design showed a non-flat front end. I know there has been discussion here of the streamlined stock, and how that faired. I, for one, quite liked that design, and thought it have the train some flair. Whatever, one's view on that aspect, I do think the S stock must be distinctive and be a design statement. These trains are going to be around for forty years plus, probably not in their as delivered form, no stock ever is, but their initial body design will be crucial to their place in LUL history. Flair the outsides like the R's, streamline the front, do something that makes it distinctive and recognisable that hasn't been done before. I'm fully aware that much of this has little to do with the utilitarian practicalities of making the train go, but I do think it matters in making it a design classic which passengers will love. Lastly, please don't do what they did on the D refurb and leave spaces between the seat cushions - they get full of rubbish and dust!
Robin
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 31, 2006 22:06:58 GMT
On a related note to the train to train transfer and disabled access questions, do you work with the ambulance services to see if they can get their stretchers and chairs in and out of the new stock designs? Whilst we haven't had direct talks with the LAS (London Ambulance Service) we are aware of stretcher dimensions. We are also working in consultation with various user groups representing the mobility impaired. The removal of customers on a stretcher or who are mobility impaired is going to be drastically improved on 'S' stock because they are gangway as opposed to traditional carriages. We are always limited by the 'J' door (the drivers door from the cab to the carriage) and the 'M' door (the front door from the cab to the track) due to space limitations. Essentially, the bigger and wider you make them the less room you have for equipment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2006 22:13:24 GMT
I have always loved the round lights on the ends of cars on the Bakerloo and Victoria. The refraction through the glass screens in wonderful, and they soften the whole atmosphere - could something like this be done? As the S stock will be walk-through there won't be car ends as such. IIRC the 09 stcok mock-up for the Victoria line had lights by the sides of the doors that light when the doors open. Similar thing on the mainline Electrostars (all built by Bombardier).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2006 22:13:38 GMT
I do think the S stock must be distinctive and be a design statement. These trains are going to be around for forty years plus, probably not in their as delivered form, no stock ever is, but their initial body design will be crucial to their place in LUL history. Flair the outsides like the R's, streamline the front, do something that makes it distinctive and recognisable that hasn't been done before. The flairing was to stop people riding on the step plates, or something like that. Flaring this isn't now needed, and the S-stocks profile will be shaped so as to allow the best use of the available loading gauge. I think the S-stock will have a distinctive design, with a curvy front end. I quite like the look of it's smaller brother, the 2009 stock. In fact, I think it will be a a lot more distinctive than the present surface stock.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 31, 2006 22:48:18 GMT
A couple of aesthetic matters... First of all, can I say what a great post! The S stock will probably be about for the rest of my life (I'm 28) and I really think it needs to be classic in its design. This doesn't mean teak floors (great though they are!) but styling and aesthetics. I couldn't agree more. We have hired a transportation design expert onto the LU team. This guy has a lot of experience in train interior design and is talking to us regarding what we see as our heritage. He came along to the Museum visit with us and took lots of photos. He also looked at lots of moquette designs and is taking our heritage very seriously, as are both Bombardier and Metronet to be fair. We are bashing them over the head with this one! Firstly, lighting in the cars. Obviously the majority of this will need to be provided by fluorescent tubes. Clearly there has been a debate as to the best wattage of these in recent times as seen in the change on the 92 stock. Any lighting needs to be appropriate to read in with comfort, to feel safe in, to not blitz ones eyes when one is snoozing after a night out, or indeed the next morning. Thus, the way such tubes are defused I think is a critical matter. The softer the light, the nicer the atmosphere, yet, at the same time it needs to be practical. However, I don't think this ought to be the only source of light. I think Bombardier are quite good at lighting. They are already talking to us about lux levels and diffusers for 'S'. I think they have got the lighting on the refurbished 'D' Stock right. Everyone I spoke to at the 2009 tube stock mock-up commented that the lighting was very impressive. Their use of modern lighting tubes coupled with the types of diffusers they use equal pretty impressive results. I have always loved the round lights on the ends of cars on the Bakerloo and Victoria. The refraction through the glass screens in wonderful, and they soften the whole atmosphere - could something like this be done? The round lights are quite nice aren't they? The main problem we have here is that we are going for gangways and do not have car ends as such. What we are doing though is placing lights in the gangway area itself in order to create a sense of flow from one car to the next and also to encourage customers to use these areas during busy periods. I also think it would be good to have lights that come on over doors when they open. Again the use of a different form of light adds to the ambiance. It could also provide a source of light for the exit, illuminating the edges of platforms, after all, these trains will spend a lot of their lives outside tunnels. Might floor lights be a possibility? I fully expect to see LED type lighting around the door areas but we are a little too early in the design at this stage for me to be able to say exactly what is proposed. I quite like the blue lighting effect found on the Pendilinos, and the aisle lights on the Heathrow Connect Desiro's. What about led floor lights in the colour of the line? Another way of identifying the line. It is a nice idea but as the 7 car trains will be interchangeable this would pose a few problems operationally. Also, I would imagine that this type of system would be a maintenance liability. There is also an issue of cost too. Secondly, the inside panels of the train. There is a lot of talk here of 'plastic trains'! The inside panels of trains is an interesting subject (to some!) I was delighted to see the removal of the Metro Cammel orange squiggle stuff on the D stock - it's foul - give me plastic any day of the week. I too was glad to see the departure of the 'Baked Bean' coloured panels on the 'D' Stock! ;D It is clear that the S stock will be in the mould of what we have seen thus far. However, the exact hue and tone is really important. One thing that I am certain on is that plain panels will date slower than patterns. I have long preferred the D stock experimental car to the final product. I find the cream warmer and more friendly. The blue/green effect used is colder, and I think, less welcoming. On the other hand does cream get dirtier quicker, and thus, become less attractive? LU have a standard colour pallette which are covered in the standards and force the train builders down a certain route. For 'S' Stock however, we have indicated that we are willing to loosen these standards a little for the right design. Cream does show the dirt more but it's as much to do with materials as colour. If 'cheap plastic' were used then a cream panel would quickly look tatty once a bit of graffiti removal (with a buffer) had taken place. Where as if the panel was of a higher specification it would stand up better to cleaning than a cheap one, regardless of colour. The same applies the the material used in the articulated areas of the cars. Is this to be a utilitarian grey (like the bendy buses) or can something better be done? The same, of course, goes for the colour of the flooring. Bombardier are treating these areas as part of the customer saloon and as such they will reflect the same internal ambience and design as the rest of the saloon area. The flooring will be of a modern non-slip design in contrasting colours in order to meet with RVAR requirements. It will be in keeping with the overall design, but it is still a little early to have any definitive details. Lastly, the very first shots we saw of the proposed design showed a non-flat front end. I know there has been discussion here of the streamlined stock, and how that faired. I, for one, quite liked that design, and thought it have the train some flair. Whatever, one's view on that aspect, I do think the S stock must be distinctive and be a design statement. These trains are going to be around for forty years plus, probably not in their as delivered form, no stock ever is, but their initial body design will be crucial to their place in LUL history. Flair the outsides like the R's, streamline the front, do something that makes it distinctive and recognisable that hasn't been done before. Again, I couldn't agree more. This is a tricky area though as one man's design masterpiece is anothers design disaster! I thought the streamlined 1938 prototype was great but it added no real value to the performance. Let's face it though, we still ended up with a design classic in the final 38 stock. The exterior design has moved on significantly since the early shots and I am trying to get permission to post the latest designs here. It is still rounded and I think it looks quite good personally, no doubt certain members will flog me to death when they appear though! It is certainly distinctive and will evoke a flurry of comments. Sadly, and it is sad, we will not see a return to the flaired skirts of the 'R' stock. I'm fully aware that much of this has little to do with the utilitarian practicalities of making the train go, but I do think it matters in making it a design classic which passengers will love. It may have little to do with performance but it is still a priority for us to have a finished design that is clearly LU. I would love to see little details such as car numbers placed inside the LU roundel like on the 38ts. It is my hope that when the train hits London you will be able to board it and recognise that it is an LU train rather than a NR train just by design alone. We will have failed IMHO if this train is just another networker. Lastly, please don't do what they did on the D refurb and leave spaces between the seat cushions - they get full of rubbish and dust! Yes. The seat design is still ongoing and a lot of effort from all parties is being put in to getting this right. We are never going to please everyone but we are going to have a bl**dy good try! Thanks again for a great post.
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