S stock picture

[Chris M]

How will they distinguish platforms at Paddington?

[Deleted]

awkward42 said:

How will they distinguish platforms at Paddington?

Good question. And I wonder if regular passengers will come to realise that they can save themselves a walk (if coming up from Hammersmith) by staying on the train until it visits Paddington the second time!

[metman]

Personally I would like to think that the Circle Line would remain as the Circle Line! It would just run to Hammersmith too! It would be far easier for all those concerned! As for the Paddington situation.....well they could write 'change for Heathrow Express' next to the Circle Station and/or rename the Paddington H&C. Paddington (Bishops Road). 'change for local services'? It's any ones guess!

[Chris M]

adw said:

awkward42 said:

How will they distinguish platforms at Paddington?

Good question. And I wonder if regular passengers will come to realise that they can save themselves a walk (if coming up from Hammersmith) by staying on the train until it visits Paddington the second time!

If you are at the front of a HST then there is not much difference in how far you need to walk. As I normally travel in the quiet coach, right at the front, I try and get a H&C - particularly with luggage as getting a big bag through the passages from the IR Circle can be "fun" when its busy!

[Deleted]

metman said:

Personally I would like to think that the Circle Line would remain as the Circle Line! It would just run to Hammersmith too! It would be far easier for all those concerned!

Trouble is, it won't do a direct trip between all points on the line as it does now - if your journey takes you through Edgware Road (e.g. Gt Portland St - Notting Hill Gate) you're going to have to change at Edgware Road. So it won't be the circle that everyone's used to.

[Deleted]

You would get through trains from Notting Hill Gate to Baker Street if the Circle line trains did a full loop before going around again and reversing at Edgware Road or Hammersmith. That would man that one in two Circle trains clockwise from Notting Hill Gate would reverse at Edgware Road, the other one in two would go on to Baker Street and reverse after doing a full loop.

Clockwise passengers would only need to know they were on a Edgware Road reverse train once the train was at Embankment (because they would know that it would be more direct to go to Baker Street and stations to its east by taking the Bakerloo northbound.

In the anticlockwise case, passengers at Liverpool Street would need to know the Circle train would not be going around to Notting Hill Gate, but going on to Hammersmith. Before that the routing wan't matter to passengers already on the train.

[metman]

I thought all T Cup trains run Hammer-Baker St-Victoria-Edgware Rd and back again? I wasn't lead to believe that some trains did additional laps! I wouldn't imagine that would be good for reliability! Personally the Circle Line should remain as it is now-and IT should recieve extra trains before the Metropolitan! After all, I don't see Met services with delays due to non available trains?

[Deleted]

Metman, that is the plan. I was saing that passenegers would be less inconvenienced if some of the trains from Notting Hill Gate ran through to Baker Street and beyond.

[metman]

Totally agree-but I didn't think that they were doing to do that. Surely the trains would clash at Edgware Road? To get a regular service all trains would need to be terminated at Edgware Road otherwise trains coming from Hammersmith would run into the trains on their second lap. I tried working this out for Moorgate reversers and it didn't work!

[Chris M]

perhaps instead of doing another full circle they could reverse in the bay platforms at Moorgate. this would give a long overlap. The SSR in the central area might look something like this (sorry for the poor quality)


Perhaps the only journey that would be inconvenienced this way would be High Street Kensington (HSK( and Bayswater to Liverpool Street via Baker Street, but the journey planner reckons that from HSK changing to the Central Line at Notting Hill Gate (NHG) is only 1 minute longer than a direct outer rail circle.

Journeys from Bayswater via NHG take between 1 and 5 minutes longer, but Queensway station is a very short walk above ground.

From South Kensington the journey planner says use the IR circle via Victoria, so these stations will not be affected.

This might remove Moorgate as a reversing point for the Met, but how often is it actually used?

[c5]

Moorgate is a late running and start/end of traffic reversing point and is used a fair bit during the daytime for Circles, H&Cs and Mets.
Trouble is that it is a single line into the bayroad and going in stops both the IR and OR. I don't think it would work very well under this new service.

The service on the Circle would be the only one to change, and would run Hammersmith - Edgware Road via one lap of the Circle. So travelling from, say Paddington (Praed Street) to Kings Cross, would require a change of trains at Edgware Road.
It would still be known as the Circle, changing such an iconic name would be a mistake, though will be amusing that is doesn't actually do a complete circle!

At least the Hammersmith branch should then actually get a decent service!

LU staff can look at a diagram and other information on the Operational Upgrades section of the Intranet.

[Deleted]

awkward42 said:

perhaps instead of doing another full circle they could reverse in the bay platforms at Moorgate. this would give a long overlap.

Your idea has a few flaws:-
1. The track layout at Moorgate makes it unsuitable for regular reversing.
2. Due to the extra trains between Edgware Rd and Moorgate, the frequency would have to be reduced on the other lines running through that area.

[Chris M]

Presumably the track layout would be improvable should the will be there to do so?

However, the capacity issues would be more difficult to fix - if possible at all, although I was thinking of only perhaps every other train continuing beyond Edgware road rather than every one, so that wouldn't be as much of an increase in capacity required.

[metman]

That's the problem I found with using Moorgate. The trains going beyond Edgware Road for the second time would clash with the trains coming from Hammersmith for the first time. This is why the Circle Line needs to terminate at Edgware Road. To be fair, I rarely get a Circle Line train from Baker Street to HSK. Its always the H&C and District combination, because there are never any Circle Line trains!! What sort of frequency is going to be run on the Circle, H&C and District (Wimbleware) services? Can platforms 2 & 3 cope at Edgware Road, and can the junction to the west cope?

[suncloud]

awkward42 said:

Presumably the track layout would be improvable should the will be there to do so?

It would probably be quite an undertaking to solve the big problem as JTD points out that trains have to cross the IR when going from the OR into the terminal platforms. Would be interesting for singalling to have regular trains going in there. Ideally it requires a diveunder or fly over but there's not much scope for that (even if you take over space from the widened lines east of Farringdon.

[Deleted]

The tube map would be modified as follows:



The Wimbleware branch would swap its position with the Circle. This design also shows light blue to show step-free access and a way of showing surface links between stations.

[Chris M]

The light blue step-free access and the above-ground links are both much better than the current map.

[metman]

I don't like the light blue step-free the current symbols are better, and you don't need to refer to the key to find out what they mean! These could mean there's a toilet there for all I'd know! The orange links are great however-I really like them!

[Deleted]

Thanks for the response, I know that using light blue to indicate step-free platform access isn't as clear as using the disabled symbol - the first time you look at the map. However once you understand what the symbol means, it gets in the way too much - especially on the DLR. Those big blobs emphasise each station too much. Circles mean interchanges, not here where they mean access. They could also mean that there are toliet facilities for wheelchair users at that station...

The map survived many years with daggers and double-daggers indicating weekend opening hours. I think a unique system for showing step-free access is no less bad than that. At least it doesn't bash every map user over the head with information they have no need for...

Metman. if this seems like I'm jumping down your throat, I apologise; these words are mainly to practice my defence of this idea, but I'm open to more elegant solutions!

[metman]

I understand, I don't like the way the step-free access works for non-interchange stations either. It looks ok on line diagrams but not on the main map as you say! The toilet thing was very light hearted! Maybe a wheelchair symbol next to the station would help (although it could get quite messy!)? This is not an easy fix I suspect!

[Deleted]

metman said:

Personally the Circle Line should remain as it is now-and IT should recieve extra trains before the Metropolitan! After all, I don't see Met services with delays due to non available trains?

Agree with Met Man on that quoted above !

However I much much prefer the map posted. Much more acceptable to the eye, even if a light blue wheelchair symbol was shown in the interchange circle or adjacent to the station name.

The current line diagrams and map are a hideous eyesore thanks to those horrendous blue blobs !

Stations with in station toilet facilities should be identified too !!

[Chris M]

Looking again at the map it appears that you've split the Northern Line. If this is to happen I think the CHX branch should retain the black colour as the map is centred around the bold red and black crossing at Tottenham Court Road.

[cetacean]

How is the Shepherd's Bush interchange 200m? Even with the current Central Line building it's barely 100m door to door, and when they rebuild it with a side entrance it'll be reduced even further.

On the other hand, Wood Lane to White City will be more like 200m than 50m.

[abe]

awkward42 said:

Looking again at the map it appears that you've split the Northern Line. If this is to happen I think the CHX branch should retain the black colour as the map is centred around the bold red and black crossing at Tottenham Court Road.

Historically the black colour was used by the C&SLR; the Hampstead Tube only used black when the links with the C&SLR were under construction. Prior to this the colour most often used by the Hampstead Tube was a purply-red (the colour used for the cover of the recent book about the line).

[metman]

They should keep the Northern Line as it is and just run it as it is? After all you don't see the Wimbleware service a different colour do you?

[Deleted]

aspect said:

Stations with in station toilet facilities should be identified too !!

Many of them are. I can easily identify Mile End eastbound platform with my eyes closed

[Deleted]

aspect said:

Stations with in station toilet facilities should be identified too !!

There was an unofficial toilet map available on the internet a few years back. I think TfL's lawyers caused it be removed.

Showing stations with toilets may be useful, but could also attract the wrong sort of clientele (such as drug users, and those that use toilets for other purposes). Maybe just putting a symbol next to the list of station names would be better?

[Alight]

I personally feel as if the Hammersmith and City line should just be taken away from the above map as it will be a pointless line to keep! (Aldgate East-Barking will be nicely covered by the met)

[metman]

The Met is not going to Barking now-thankfully!

[c5]

There are some photos of S Stock on the Production Line on the LU Intranet for those staff with access. I dont know if "the forum" would be allowed to have look at them?