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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 7, 2014 17:36:24 GMT
Any reduction to running times? The quote is "running times adjusted to reflect performance under TBTC". I would need to check actual times between WTT54 and 55 to make a comparison. |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 7, 2014 18:01:21 GMT
Any reduction to running times? The quote is "running times adjusted to reflect performance under TBTC". I would need to check actual times between WTT54 and 55 to make a comparison. OK thanks. I do hope that there has been a reduction, since the TBTC under WTT54 is quite pedestrian in places! |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 7, 2014 18:40:36 GMT
Individual station reductions are evident, although to save typing i will show these in branches:
Edgware-Camden Town: SB -1¾, NB -3¼
High Barnet-Camden: SB -2, NB -1½
Mill Hill East-Finchley Central: both 0
Camden Town-Kennington (CX): SB -1, NB -1
Camden Town-Kennington (Bank): SB -¾, NB -¼
Kennington-Tooting: SB 0, NB -½
Tooting-Morden: SB -½, NB -¼ .
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Post by superteacher on Dec 7, 2014 18:59:57 GMT
Individual station reductions are evident, although to save typing i will show these in branches: Edgware-Camden Town: SB -1¾, NB -3¼ High Barnet-Camden: SB -2, NB -1½ Mill Hill East-Finchley Central: both 0 Camden Town-Kennington (CX): SB -1, NB -1 Camden Town-Kennington (Bank): SB -¾, NB -¼ Kennington-Tooting: SB 0, NB -½ Tooting-Morden: SB -½, NB -¼ . Cheers. Quite a reduction on the NB from Camden to Edgware. |
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Post by North End on Dec 7, 2014 19:21:40 GMT
The quote is "running times adjusted to reflect performance under TBTC". I would need to check actual times between WTT54 and 55 to make a comparison. OK thanks. I do hope that there has been a reduction, since the TBTC under WTT54 is quite pedestrian in places! Some small speed increases on the Barnet branch, noticed Highgate to Archway SB has increased from 40 mph to 45 mph for a small section, also Archway to Tufnell Park SB up from 35 mph to 37 mph. Nothing spectacular though. Still pathetically slow coming in to platforms in the open, and some tunnel platforms as well; we're coming up to 2 years since NMA1 came in and this really should have been addressed by now. The Central Line does not suffer this issue, so since the 1990s we have regressed! |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 7, 2014 19:28:47 GMT
OK thanks. I do hope that there has been a reduction, since the TBTC under WTT54 is quite pedestrian in places! Some small speed increases on the Barnet branch, noticed Highgate to Archway SB has increased from 40 mph to 45 mph for a small section, also Archway to Tufnell Park SB up from 35 mph to 37 mph. Nothing spectacular though. Still pathetically slow coming in to platforms in the open, and some tunnel platforms as well; we're coming up to 2 years since NMA1 came in and this really should have been addressed by now. The Central Line does not suffer this issue, so since the 1990s we have regressed! The new timetable doesn't come in until next Sunday, so I'm assuming things will speec up to fit in with the new reduced running times. |
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Post by North End on Dec 7, 2014 20:21:54 GMT
Some small speed increases on the Barnet branch, noticed Highgate to Archway SB has increased from 40 mph to 45 mph for a small section, also Archway to Tufnell Park SB up from 35 mph to 37 mph. Nothing spectacular though. Still pathetically slow coming in to platforms in the open, and some tunnel platforms as well; we're coming up to 2 years since NMA1 came in and this really should have been addressed by now. The Central Line does not suffer this issue, so since the 1990s we have regressed! The new timetable doesn't come in until next Sunday, so I'm assuming things will speec up to fit in with the new reduced running times. I hope so! I know there are various software drops planned for the coming days and weeks which hopefully will increase speed at various locations. I'm not banking on any noticeable improvement in open section brake rates however - as ever I hope to be proved wrong.. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2014 20:23:21 GMT
Is the timetable change going ahead this month? Yes as from 14 December WTT55 comes into operation. M-F: 3 additional trains are scheduled from Morden depot in the peaks, with 96 trains now out in each peak. 'Stepping-back' of drivers introduced at Morden in both peaks. During the morning peak 26tph NB Bank branch, 22tph NB Charing Cross branch. In the morning peak NB 30tph now run NB from Morden for 90mins, this is reversed to SB in the evening peak. NB peak services have been reversed to operate to Edgware from Bank branch, High Barnet/Mill Hill from CX branch. At off-peak times a 20tph service runs in the Central area, with 80 trains in service. SAT: Services increased to 20tph throughout the line with 80 trains now in service. SUN: Before 1000 services increased to 18.25tph in Central area. Charing Cross branch trains continue to terminate at Kennington. After 1000 services increased to 20tph throughout the line with 80 trains now in service. Where you say NB services operate to high Barnet via CH x and edgware via bank, is that morning or evening peak? |
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Post by Hassaan on Dec 7, 2014 20:52:22 GMT
OK thanks. I do hope that there has been a reduction, since the TBTC under WTT54 is quite pedestrian in places! Some small speed increases on the Barnet branch, noticed Highgate to Archway SB has increased from 40 mph to 45 mph for a small section, also Archway to Tufnell Park SB up from 35 mph to 37 mph. Nothing spectacular though. Still pathetically slow coming in to platforms in the open, and some tunnel platforms as well; we're coming up to 2 years since NMA1 came in and this really should have been addressed by now. The Central Line does not suffer this issue, so since the 1990s we have regressed! Jubilee Line is also slow into platforms at Canning Town and West Ham for some reason. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 7, 2014 21:15:08 GMT
Where you say NB services operate to high Barnet via CH x and edgware via bank, is that morning or evening peak? Apologies, should've been clearly in the paragraph "in the morning peak" |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2014 23:19:43 GMT
Some small speed increases on the Barnet branch, noticed Highgate to Archway SB has increased from 40 mph to 45 mph for a small section, also Archway to Tufnell Park SB up from 35 mph to 37 mph. Nothing spectacular though. Still pathetically slow coming in to platforms in the open, and some tunnel platforms as well; we're coming up to 2 years since NMA1 came in and this really should have been addressed by now. The Central Line does not suffer this issue, so since the 1990s we have regressed! Jubilee Line is also slow into platforms at Canning Town and West Ham for some reason. I maybe wrong but at C T & W H I think it has something to do with wet weather and the trains over shooting the platforms |
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Post by North End on Dec 8, 2014 13:52:53 GMT
Jubilee Line is also slow into platforms at Canning Town and West Ham for some reason. I maybe wrong but at C T & W H I think it has something to do with wet weather and the trains over shooting the platforms It's never been officially explained, however it seems the issue is that if the train starts to slide, even by a relatively modest amount, the system design results in the VOBCs throwing up an error and the train goes non-communicating, requiring a lengthy re-entry process which involves having to work in RM to the next loop, wherever that may be. To be honest, from a personal point of view I'm sick of the glitches, blips and issues that seem to be associated with the Seltrac product. The ATO is slow, uncomfortable and erratic compared to other systems. Meanwhile a *lot* of time and work has had to be done by the 'customer' in identifying issues, some of which have been fixed, others have been dealt with by 'workarounds', some have been 'improved', but there are still a lot of issues with this system. If I were the 'customer', I would definitely not be buying more, but unfortunately Thales are now the only supplier who seem able to take on the SSR project. Not a good position to be in at all. Meanwhile, the Victoria Line seems to get better all the time, first it coped with 33tph with almost no trouble, now it is doing even more. (For balance I will add that the Victoria Line did have the benefit of the trains and signalling being specified as part of the same project). |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 8, 2014 22:39:53 GMT
The Central line ATO is quicker and smoother than the Northern. There's progress for you!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 12:29:39 GMT
I had a look at the journey planner on the tfl site. Morden branch service looks much better but I can't see much if any difference on the high Barnet branch southbound am and northbound pm. Do we know what improvements there are?
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Post by superteacher on Dec 15, 2014 19:13:45 GMT
Anyone been on the Northern since the new timetable was introduced yesterday? Does it seem faster? I'll be trying it out for myself on Wednesday!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 7:29:57 GMT
Yeah it did seem a bit faster yesterday, especially south of Camden town on the charing cross branch. On the downside trains seemed to be a bit less frequent than normal! Gaps of 5 mins plus at finchley central and warren street in the peaks. Hopefully just initial glitches!
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Post by superteacher on Dec 19, 2014 7:59:16 GMT
Did seem a bit quicker to be honest, but a couple of locations still seem a little slow, with the train slowing down for no apparent reason.
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Post by North End on Dec 20, 2014 12:10:46 GMT
Did seem a bit quicker to be honest, but a couple of locations still seem a little slow, with the train slowing down for no apparent reason. I think the software drops take place on each individual VCC, some of which have been done, others are yet to come. Therefore certain areas of the line are faster, others not yet. I believe parts of the Barnet branch and Bank branch, at least, are faster, but the Edgware branch hasn't yet changed (as far as can be seen), likewise I don't think there's any improvement south of the Clapham area. None of the increase is particularly earth-shattering. 60 mph was promised, however at present the fastest speed achieved seems to be 50 mph. Remember this is only 5 mph faster than hitherto, whilst the Central Line used to routinely achieve 50 mph with 1962 stock and conventional signalling! There remain many issues with the system, not least the speed dropping in the middle of nowhere for no obvious reason with Thales seemingly unable to explain why. Not impressive for £1bn! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 15:55:29 GMT
Could there be a speed restriction in place on the software people have forgotten about?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 16:24:31 GMT
Did seem a bit quicker to be honest, but a couple of locations still seem a little slow, with the train slowing down for no apparent reason. I think the software drops take place on each individual VCC, some of which have been done, others are yet to come. Therefore certain areas of the line are faster, others not yet. I believe parts of the Barnet branch and Bank branch, at least, are faster, but the Edgware branch hasn't yet changed (as far as can be seen), likewise I don't think there's any improvement south of the Clapham area. None of the increase is particularly earth-shattering. 60 mph was promised, however at present the fastest speed achieved seems to be 50 mph. Remember this is only 5 mph faster than hitherto, whilst the Central Line used to routinely achieve 50 mph with 1962 stock and conventional signalling! There remain many issues with the system, not least the speed dropping in the middle of nowhere for no obvious reason with Thales seemingly unable to explain why. Not impressive for £1bn! If there are speed restrictions in the software they will all be perfectly well known and with the right diagrams it is easy to tell where the speed restrictions are (and with some extra info, and more importantly, why they are there). There were a lot of legacy speed restrictions and also some new ones as a result of having to apply all of the latest gauging limitations (no "grandfather rights" for new signalling). The overall run times are a little less than originally predicted (about 10 years ago) but not wildly out so it may be unrealistic expectations and I don't think 60mph was ever promised line wide. You're right the software is applied VCC by VCC and it is the VCC software that contains the permanent speed restrictions. I'm not directly involved anymore so I'm not sure how far the rollout had got though would guess it is almost complete. Not sure where you get the £1bn from. The cost of the Northern line resignalling (at least the Thales cost) is orders of magnitude less than this. |
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Post by North End on Dec 22, 2014 9:47:24 GMT
I think the software drops take place on each individual VCC, some of which have been done, others are yet to come. Therefore certain areas of the line are faster, others not yet. I believe parts of the Barnet branch and Bank branch, at least, are faster, but the Edgware branch hasn't yet changed (as far as can be seen), likewise I don't think there's any improvement south of the Clapham area. None of the increase is particularly earth-shattering. 60 mph was promised, however at present the fastest speed achieved seems to be 50 mph. Remember this is only 5 mph faster than hitherto, whilst the Central Line used to routinely achieve 50 mph with 1962 stock and conventional signalling! There remain many issues with the system, not least the speed dropping in the middle of nowhere for no obvious reason with Thales seemingly unable to explain why. Not impressive for £1bn! If there are speed restrictions in the software they will all be perfectly well known and with the right diagrams it is easy to tell where the speed restrictions are (and with some extra info, and more importantly, why they are there). There were a lot of legacy speed restrictions and also some new ones as a result of having to apply all of the latest gauging limitations (no "grandfather rights" for new signalling). The overall run times are a little less than originally predicted (about 10 years ago) but not wildly out so it may be unrealistic expectations and I don't think 60mph was ever promised line wide. You're right the software is applied VCC by VCC and it is the VCC software that contains the permanent speed restrictions. I'm not directly involved anymore so I'm not sure how far the rollout had got though would guess it is almost complete. Not sure where you get the £1bn from. The cost of the Northern line resignalling (at least the Thales cost) is orders of magnitude less than this. I know the speed limits have had to be re-calculated to modern standards, however with regard to the target speed dropping in unexpected locations, I was referring to locations where it seems to drop for a few seconds in the middle of nowhere. At first I thought this was due to catching up with a train ahead, but it happens in some locations all the time (including first train of day), and it's definitely not due to a TSR as these are all shown on the SMC screens up at Highgate. On the subject of the new software, this also seems to have brought in brake rate changes - King's Cross northbound for example now crawls in at what seems like the minimum brake rate. Before the last couple of weeks TBTC was managing to hit this platform at 30 mph, and under manual driving drivers could hit this at nearly 35 mph. Why the change now? I definitely recall 100 kph being promised for the open sections in various presentations. The £1bn figure came from a senior manager! I know a lot of effort has been carried out by the project team in getting this system up and running, with many issues having been addressed, however considering Seltrac is hardly new technology, and London has past experience on both the DLR and Jubilee Line, the product as installed on the Northern Line has a surprisingly high number of issues. I get the impression that if it weren't for the project team, and staff on the ground, many of these issues would never have been picked up by Thales, let alone addressed by them. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 16:43:55 GMT
I know the speed limits have had to be re-calculated to modern standards, however with regard to the target speed dropping in unexpected locations, I was referring to locations where it seems to drop for a few seconds in the middle of nowhere. At first I thought this was due to catching up with a train ahead, but it happens in some locations all the time (including first train of day), and it's definitely not due to a TSR as these are all shown on the SMC screens up at Highgate. On the subject of the new software, this also seems to have brought in brake rate changes - King's Cross northbound for example now crawls in at what seems like the minimum brake rate. Before the last couple of weeks TBTC was managing to hit this platform at 30 mph, and under manual driving drivers could hit this at nearly 35 mph. Why the change now? I definitely recall 100 kph being promised for the open sections in various presentations. The £1bn figure came from a senior manager! I know a lot of effort has been carried out by the project team in getting this system up and running, with many issues having been addressed, however considering Seltrac is hardly new technology, and London has past experience on both the DLR and Jubilee Line, the product as installed on the Northern Line has a surprisingly high number of issues. I get the impression that if it weren't for the project team, and staff on the ground, many of these issues would never have been picked up by Thales, let alone addressed by them. If the target speed is dropping please make a note and pass to the operational reps on the project. It should be possible to check what's happening. If you need a name PM me. On the 100kph - yes, you're right. The 100kph testing is still ongoing but should be nearly finished now - the testing is more around braking than signalling. On the last point again you're right there are lots of issues that need to be ironed out. Thales have been supportive of investigating and fixing stuff (but then they should be as we are paying them). Just shows that off the shelf software is really nothing of the sort (though off the shelf is far better than only on the drawing board as certain other products seem to be). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 12:28:44 GMT
If 100 km/h is the promised new top speed, what was the old actually obtained top speed? 80 km/h?
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Post by superteacher on Dec 23, 2014 16:52:10 GMT
If 100 km/h is the promised new top speed, what was the old actually obtained top speed? 80 km/h? Not sure what the highest actual official limit was, but there are various stories of trains reaching 60 mph (100 kph) in some locations. Thia was in the days of 1938 / 1959 stock. |
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Post by North End on Dec 24, 2014 10:31:50 GMT
If 100 km/h is the promised new top speed, what was the old actually obtained top speed? 80 km/h? Line speed on the Northern was generally 35 mph from Golders Green and Archway to Morden via Bank, 30 mph on the Charing Cross branch, 40 mph north of Golders Green, and 45 mph north of East Finchley. Embankment to Kennington was raised in the 2000s to variously 35 or 40 mph. 95 stock trains could certainly reach 60 mph at certain locations, High Barnet to Totteridge being the favourite, but other fast sections were Hendon Central to Brent Cross SB, Hendon Central to Colindale NB, and East Finchley to Finchley Central NB. 40 mph could easily be exceeded in certain tunnel sections, notably Angel to King's Cross NB, and coming south from Golders Green and East Finchley. In the old days this sort of speeding was quietly encouraged, I've heard stories of instructors who used to teach their own speed limits in certain locations. However in recent years things have tightened up considerably, and speeding of this nature is nowadays taken very seriously. In the event of an incident, if a download was carried out and the train found to be speeding then the driver could expect to have action taken. By contrast, the Piccadilly Line regularly reaches 45 mph in the tunnel sections, and the Jubilee Line under conventional signalling could reach well over 50 mph in certain sections. My issue with TBTC is not so much the speed limits - I fully appreciate that it has been necessary to re-calculate everything to tie in with modern requirements - but the erratic way Seltrac drives the train. Brakes coming on in the middle of nowhere momentarily for no good reason, over-braking for speed restrictions (watch it drop down to 18 mph when reducing speed for a 25 mph restriction), ridiculously low brake rates in certain locations, and a generally atrocious driving technique all round. Unlike the Victoria Line, Seltrac is not new technology, and these issues should have been designed out by now. |
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Post by North End on Dec 26, 2014 18:14:13 GMT
I know the speed limits have had to be re-calculated to modern standards, however with regard to the target speed dropping in unexpected locations, I was referring to locations where it seems to drop for a few seconds in the middle of nowhere. At first I thought this was due to catching up with a train ahead, but it happens in some locations all the time (including first train of day), and it's definitely not due to a TSR as these are all shown on the SMC screens up at Highgate. On the subject of the new software, this also seems to have brought in brake rate changes - King's Cross northbound for example now crawls in at what seems like the minimum brake rate. Before the last couple of weeks TBTC was managing to hit this platform at 30 mph, and under manual driving drivers could hit this at nearly 35 mph. Why the change now? I definitely recall 100 kph being promised for the open sections in various presentations. The £1bn figure came from a senior manager! I know a lot of effort has been carried out by the project team in getting this system up and running, with many issues having been addressed, however considering Seltrac is hardly new technology, and London has past experience on both the DLR and Jubilee Line, the product as installed on the Northern Line has a surprisingly high number of issues. I get the impression that if it weren't for the project team, and staff on the ground, many of these issues would never have been picked up by Thales, let alone addressed by them. If the target speed is dropping please make a note and pass to the operational reps on the project. It should be possible to check what's happening. If you need a name PM me. On the 100kph - yes, you're right. The 100kph testing is still ongoing but should be nearly finished now - the testing is more around braking than signalling. On the last point again you're right there are lots of issues that need to be ironed out. Thales have been supportive of investigating and fixing stuff (but then they should be as we are paying them). Just shows that off the shelf software is really nothing of the sort (though off the shelf is far better than only on the drawing board as certain other products seem to be). Based on the fact we're now nearly 2 years since the first section went over, there still seem to be simply too many issues. Interesting to read in the latest Underground News magazine, which quotes official TfL documentation, that the inductive cables and axle counters have proved a source of unreliability, and - more interestingly - that the Victoria Line system has proved more reliable. |
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Post by North End on Dec 29, 2014 15:32:16 GMT
Did seem a bit quicker to be honest, but a couple of locations still seem a little slow, with the train slowing down for no apparent reason. For those interested, most of the new software is now operational. Not had a chance to see how many TSRs remain in place, however highlights are: 1) Camden Town to Golders Green now has some 40 mph in places. Also Brent Cross to Hendon Central is 50 mph although not actually attained. No new software north of Hendon Central yet. 2) Charing Cross branch has some worthwhile enhancements, in particular a rather impressive section of 50 mph between Kennington and Waterloo which is actually attained for quite a long stretch. Also some high 40s even on relatively short sections like Warren Street to Goodge Street, and Embankment to Waterloo. 3) Bank branch has some enhancements in various locations, but generally fairly minimal improvement here. 4) Barnet branch has some 40 mph running between Camden and Archway, and a very impressive 50 mph section from Highgate to East Finchley, which even on the 1 in 61 then 1 in 50 uphill gradient is attained for a long period. The 95 stock actually makes a quite satisfying roar when pulling hard up this section, I imagine even more impressive on a heavily loaded train! The sting in the tail is that this is a run of two halves, a genuinely impressive dash at 50 mph, but then starts slowing down ridiculously early for East Finchley platform, still hitting the platform at a pathetic 20 mph, completely spoiling the benefit of the fast run! North of East Finchley, 50 mph is attained between East Finchley and Finchley Central, and there's also some uplift on the West Finchley stretch. No new software north of West Finchley yet, and I haven't experienced Mill Hill yet. 5) Generally not much change on the Morden section, especially south of Stockwell. Verdict: at last some worthwhile improvements, but still spoiled by loads of lower speed restrictions all over the place, and the continuing gentle braking rate into open-section (and some tunnel) platforms. Hopefully these issues will continue to be be dealt with over time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 20:05:40 GMT
As I understand it, in the days of colour light signalling, the south - north move from East Finchley platform 3 back to Finchley Central via No. 23 crossover had to be performed empty, as it was controlled by shunt signal NP34. I was wondering, with the introduction of TBTC, can the move now be performed in service.
Either way, has the upgrade to TBTC wrought any (other) changes to the possible moves on the Northern line, or is everything exactly as it was, but with a different signalling system controlling it all?
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Post by North End on Jan 8, 2015 6:41:09 GMT
As I understand it, in the days of colour light signalling, the south - north move from East Finchley platform 3 back to Finchley Central via No. 23 crossover had to be performed empty, as it was controlled by shunt signal NP34. I was wondering, with the introduction of TBTC, can the move now be performed in service. Either way, has the upgrade to TBTC wrought any (other) changes to the possible moves on the Northern line, or is everything exactly as it was, but with a different signalling system controlling it all? It's still an empty move, as the relevant points still don't have facing point locking. It's a very rarely used move, although it used to be timetabled for an empty train to do it on Saturday mornings, this has not been the case for some years. I've only ever seen the move done once. The n/b to s/b move over 23 crossover is quite common, however. Normally if reversing s/b to n/b at East Finchley the centre siding would be used. Generally TBTC was done like-for-like compared to what existed before, so an opportunity was missed to add additional moves. So, for example, it is still not possible to reverse s/b to n/b at Archway. In fact, some facilities were taken away, such as the crossover at Totteridge (which would be very useful at times), and Edgware 16 sidings (also a useful bolthole in times of disruption). There are two moves which weren't previously possible, as the Highgate Depot entry and exit has now been divided into two. Therefore it is possible to reverse on the reception road. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 15:50:48 GMT
Overall, the journey from Totteridge to Bank is much faster than before but it could be much better in all honesty. The Picc Line is consistently fast.
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